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Author Topic: ATC & drone integration  (Read 1990 times)

electrotor

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Steve W

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Re: ATC & drone integration
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2018, 12:11:33 AM »

Very interesting - I just downloaded Altitude Angel and signed up. I do like the fact that they're going to push the data in real-time for the benefit of manned aviation so basically if anyone starts flying, manned aircraft will have a real-time update of operations as they happen.

It might seem a little over the top but it makes sense to me that we move in that direction because there has to be communication.
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ORCA

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Re: ATC & drone integration
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2018, 10:47:38 AM »

I really don't get all this. As a holder of a PPL and ex hang glider pilot if I wish to fly either craft VFR in open airspace there is no requirement for me to inform anyone
(no requirement for a 'flight plan') or to carry any form of transponder to indicate my location. There are a couple of guys that I meet quite often that fly paragliders off my local beach and the same requirements apply. In fact I don't even have to have a two way radio in either case. So, why the extreme extra necessity for drones(quadcopters/model aircraft etc) that by the rules will be flying within VLOS whether FPV or not?
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Steve W

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Re: ATC & drone integration
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2018, 10:52:56 AM »

I'm guessing they have to be seen to be doing something about the scourge of drones - whether it's effective or not.
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electrotor

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Re: ATC & drone integration
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2018, 11:49:07 AM »

I really don't get all this. As a holder of a PPL and ex hang glider pilot if I wish to fly either craft VFR in open airspace there is no requirement for me to inform anyone
(no requirement for a 'flight plan') or to carry any form of transponder to indicate my location. There are a couple of guys that I meet quite often that fly paragliders off my local beach and the same requirements apply. In fact I don't even have to have a two way radio in either case. So, why the extreme extra necessity for drones(quadcopters/model aircraft etc) that by the rules will be flying within VLOS whether FPV or not?

As I see it the crucial difference is between manned & unmanned. Let me explain.
Pilots of manned aircraft prefer to equate the number of landings with the number of take-offs. Or to put it another way they like to stay alive. In order to do this they train up to the recognised level of competence, be it PPL, CPL or ATPL and in so doing they learn about air law, meteorology and generally safe flying.
Meanwhile pilots of unmanned aircraft don't have the same imperative for self preservation. That doesn't mean to say that consequently they will fly irresponsibly, however we do know that some numpties can buy and fly a model aircraft with no regard to other users of airspace. In the past with fixed and rotary wing this would usually last a few seconds before the inevitable crash. However these days stable flight is easier due to improved electronics and advertising encourages people with no learned skills and even less knowledge to buy and fly. "Responsible" manufacturers do little more than pay lip service to safe flying. These buy and fly types are the ones the media likes to focus on and scare the public into fear mode. As a result the politicians think they have to be seen to be doing something which sadly tends to tar us all with the same brush. That's where we seem to be now.
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ORCA

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Re: ATC & drone integration
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2018, 12:19:44 PM »

But, a system is only as good as its weakest link. Its no good knowing where every flying model is if the manned aircraft(all sorts) have no way of being informed and they can't tell the modeller were they are or their track. The height separation safety zone is also a misnomer. Max height of model 400ft, min height of manned aircraft 500ft. But no, the actual regs state that every vehicle, vessel, person and structure has a '500ft DOME' over them which must not be entered. It does not state that the minimum height for manned aircraft is 500ft. Thus it is allowed for a manned aircraft to fly down to just above the ground/water if there is none of the above there or within 500ft horizontally. I have personally flown a Cessna 152/172 just above the water down the river Blackwater in Essex on several occasions. So, it would be quite possible to have a conflict with both aircraft flying legally. Personally I only have a 'pay as you go' mobile phone with no data. Those that subscribe to this service are providing evidence to anyone who would wish to use it against you.
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Steve W

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Re: ATC & drone integration
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2018, 01:00:15 PM »

Well, maybe that altitude misnomer also has to change - and a minimum height rule for GA traffic enforced. The use of airspace has changed, maybe the rules need to as well.

Quote
Personally I only have a 'pay as you go' mobile phone with no data.

That is your choice, other choices are available which will make you able to utilise the services designed to keep everyone safe(r). I don't think we should ignore technological solutions just because some people choose to ignore its capabilities.
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ORCA

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Re: ATC & drone integration
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2018, 03:38:12 PM »

AFAIK there are no moves to change the height rule for GA, foot launched aircraft, gliders or micro lights. It just seems that 'drones'(all types) are being subjected to a very much more stringent control than other air users. I wouldn't have a mobile phone at all if it wasn't for the wife insisting. It's turned off when ever I drive, that's if I remember to take it with me, and when flying. £20 credit on my PAYG phone lasts me several years. I'm not going to spend out on a phone(£??) and subscription package(£??) on something that I will never use except for the occasional flight. Unlike most I do not feel the need, nor do I need, to be constantly available, do my banking, watch videos, surf the net, etc.
Why does anyone need to know where I am, especially if the height rule is changed, as there is no other 'traffic' about in the lower airspace. I've never seen an autonomous drone going about its business, ever! So, how does it make anything safe(r)?
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electrotor

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Re: ATC & drone integration
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2018, 06:24:35 PM »

Max height of model 400ft

Actually this is a widely held misconception, despite Dronesafe, Drone Code, etc supported by the CAA & NATS. The 400ft height limit for recreational small unmanned aircraft applies only if the mass of said aircraft is more than 7kg and even then there are exceptiopns. I have argued this with other modellers until I was blue in the face and despite showing them the relevant documentation they insist that because their club, their instructor and their BMFA man says it is 400ft, it must be 400ft. And what is the relevant documentation? The CAA's own CAP 658.

4.2.2 Article 166 – Small unmanned aircraft
‘(1) A person must not cause or permit any article or animal (whether or not attached to a parachute) to be dropped from a small unmanned aircraft so as to endanger persons or property.
(2) The person in charge of a small unmanned aircraft may only fly the aircraft if reasonably satisfied that the flight can safely be made.
(3) The person in charge of a small unmanned aircraft must maintain direct, unaided visual contact with the aircraft sufficient to monitor its flight path in relation to other aircraft, persons, vehicles, vessels and structures for the purpose of avoiding collisions.
(4) The person in charge of a small unmanned aircraft which has a mass of more than 7 kg excluding its fuel but including any articles or equipment installed in or attached to the aircraft at the commencement of its flight, must not fly the aircraft:
(a) in Class A, C, D or E airspace unless the permission of the appropriate air traffic control unit has been obtained;
(b) within an aerodrome traffic zone during the notified hours of watch of the air traffic control unit (if any) at that aerodrome unless the permission of any such air traffic control unit has been obtained; or
(c) at a height of more than 400 feet above the surface unless it is flying in airspace described in sub-paragraph (a) or (b) and in accordance with the
requirements for that airspace.
(5) The person in charge of a small unmanned aircraft must not fly the aircraft for the purposes of aerial work except in accordance with a permission granted by the CAA.’


I have several time flown up to 1000ft in the right meteorological conditions and managed to maintain direct unaided visual line of sight to my model, that model being a Phantom 3 Pro. The downward facing lights help but the profile of the model was still identifiable.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2018, 06:31:40 PM by electrotor »
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ORCA

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Re: ATC & drone integration
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2018, 07:58:37 PM »

Yes, I know the current regs having been RC modelling since the 70's (I'm currently referred to as an 'old fart'). I've argued the same as yourself many times. I thought we were talking about the imminent future, mobile phone app, and the new regs which stipulate the 400ft max height. Much more of a problem for thermal/slope soaring than FPV.
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elmattbo

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ATC & drone integration
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2018, 11:45:03 AM »

Some good points posted above. I think one of the issues to resolve this is the dependency on technology for the UAS pilot. Learning to fly a manned aircraft has a large focus on creating a mindset where a pilot is always preventing and planning for unforeseen events. So things like a good lookout and contingency plans are second nature. Because of the self taught nature of UAS, the same culture doesn’t exist and instead there is a dependency on technology to protect, self the problem, or just accept the crash.

Regulatory solutions which focus on technology do reinforce this idea in my opinion.


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