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Author Topic: Flying FPV and the compulsory Observer rules.  (Read 861 times)

English Turbines

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Re: Flying FPV and the compulsory Observer rules.
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2019, 12:19:16 AM »

I thought this had already been covered but here we go again.
The Lipo is like a fuel tank, so it's weight is counted. The fuel consists of the charge within it, which you would be hard pushed to measure.


 Really..?....So, if you are using liquid fuel the weight of that liquid fuel does not count, but if its a Lipo it does..?

   Haha....I'd argue its meaning is ambiguous at best, and technically its complete horseshit....at takeoff, both have "Fuel" which contribute to the overall weight of the craft....End of.

                                                                                              :vulture:



                                     
« Last Edit: June 13, 2019, 12:21:56 AM by English Turbines »
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urbanfpv

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Re: Flying FPV and the compulsory Observer rules.
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2019, 09:23:11 AM »

It was covered here:

https://www.fpvhub.com/index.php/topic,53875.msg281355.html#msg281355

But I got trolled when I had the audacity to suggest that the Lipo was fuel and didn't count.
 :popcorn:

FPVSteve

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Re: Flying FPV and the compulsory Observer rules.
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2019, 09:33:35 AM »

It's all well and good arguing but I think that the weight is more the issue and since a lipo doesn't lose weight as it depletes, it probably should be counted.

I wish it wasn't though, it would make sub 250g much easier ... but you can't really say a plane is sub 250g if it weighs 250g but is carrying a 180g lipo....
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English Turbines

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Re: Flying FPV and the compulsory Observer rules.
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2019, 10:43:14 AM »

It's all well and good arguing but I think that the weight is more the issue and since a lipo doesn't lose weight as it depletes, it probably should be counted.

I wish it wasn't though, it would make sub 250g much easier ... but you can't really say a plane is sub 250g if it weighs 250g but is carrying a 180g lipo....

  Hi Steve,

                  (a) "small unmanned aircraft with a mass of less than 250 grams without their fuel"

              Maybe someone has amended the meaning of "Without" in the English Dictionary and not told anyone..? Clearly the clown who wrote it does not have a command of the English language either...."withouts its fuel"

  Whether you take off with liquid fuel or a Lipo, they both have weight and should be counted as such, why should liquid fuel be discounted on the basis that it depletes during the flight? An accident at take off and the extra weights are comparable are they not..? As I said, its ambiguous at best, but the text in red above suits me fine.

                                                                                              :vulture:






                   
« Last Edit: June 13, 2019, 10:45:54 AM by English Turbines »
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CurryKitten

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Re: Flying FPV and the compulsory Observer rules.
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2019, 10:58:31 AM »

Whilst the 250g limit is currently the get-out-of-registration-free card it's important to realise that every other law associated with "Drone" flying is still relevant.  So it doesn't get you out of the spotter rule, or the must-keep-vlos, height rules etc etc.  Whether you chose to follow all or any of them is a completely different subject.

FPVSteve

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Re: Flying FPV and the compulsory Observer rules.
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2019, 11:19:11 AM »

ET ...  I was always under the impression that the "all up weight" included the fuel (i.e. the battery) because that is what would hit you in the face and as such is what actually counts in terms of destructive ability.
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ched

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Re: Flying FPV and the compulsory Observer rules.
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2019, 12:36:51 PM »

If you think about it a liquid fuel has a container, the tank. A lipo is the electrical equivalent of a tank, it stores the fuel.
So a lipo, the electrical storage tank, has the same weight charged as discharged.

So I think 250 gms includes lipo.
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BigT

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Re: Flying FPV and the compulsory Observer rules.
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2019, 09:18:19 AM »

Itís quite clear if you read the ANO and CAP 1763 http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/modalapplication.aspx?appid=11&mode=detail&id=9002

There is no exception regarding an FPV spotter for models under 250 grams. There is an upper weight limit of 3.5 kgs. https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ORS4No1294.pdf


The club committee has a duty of care and has done the same as yours so it can be seen to comply. Personally I wonít fly FPV when anyone else is around, wonít publish any videos on line, will be selling off any long range kit which is probably only worth buttons now. Luckily our club has set up a specific area for quad racing and practice and doesnít really mind what goes on if your there on your own. However, our landlord has got more interested in how we operate due to the increased media coverage.

Out of interest what has your committee said regarding registration and competency testing?
« Last Edit: June 18, 2019, 09:49:29 AM by BigT »
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English Turbines

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Re: Flying FPV and the compulsory Observer rules.
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2019, 07:18:42 PM »

Itís quite clear if you read the ANO and CAP 1763 http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/modalapplication.aspx?appid=11&mode=detail&id=9002

There is no exception regarding an FPV spotter for models under 250 grams. There is an upper weight limit of 3.5 kgs. https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ORS4No1294.pdf


The club committee has a duty of care and has done the same as yours so it can be seen to comply. Personally I wonít fly FPV when anyone else is around, wonít publish any videos on line, will be selling off any long range kit which is probably only worth buttons now. Luckily our club has set up a specific area for quad racing and practice and doesnít really mind what goes on if your there on your own. However, our landlord has got more interested in how we operate due to the increased media coverage.

Out of interest what has your committee said regarding registration and competency testing?

  Hi Big T,

  Well, it's all about the fact it's a BMFA affiliated Club, like a lot of them are. This means that we are insured by the BMFA and as such should be seen to be complying with any rules or the Insurance may be invalidated.
  I have passed my Multirotor basic test which is a LOS flying test BTW.
As for registering ALL Fixed Wing aircraft as "Drones" for £16.50 per year, most of the members are livid at the very idea, not surprising really.
  This whole deal is all about using "Drones" as a way of taxing us and being seen to be controlled in some way by our useless Government.
   The fee of £16.50 is outrageous considering its a glorified Register on someones Laptop...ffs.


                                                                                               :vulture:

 
 

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BigT

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Re: Flying FPV and the compulsory Observer rules.
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2019, 07:58:24 PM »

  Hi Big T,

  Well, it's all about the fact it's a BMFA affiliated Club, like a lot of them are. This means that we are insured by the BMFA and as such should be seen to be complying with any rules or the Insurance may be invalidated.
  I have passed my Multirotor basic test which is a LOS flying test BTW.
As for registering ALL Fixed Wing aircraft as "Drones" for £16.50 per year, most of the members are livid at the very idea, not surprising really.
  This whole deal is all about using "Drones" as a way of taxing us and being seen to be controlled in some way by our useless Government.
   The fee of £16.50 is outrageous considering its a glorified Register on someones Laptop...ffs.


                                                                                               :vulture:

 
 

Firstly well done for passing the multirotor LOS. The issue with the BMFA and any other insurance, I.E. LMA etc, they are void if the law is broken, it states that in the policy doc you get from the BMFA. In the latest iteration of the on line registration program, there is no separation of "Drone " and "Model Aircraft" as there was in the first and second version. You currently dont have to select one or the other.  Many have pointed out to the developers that they should just have used SUA as well but the word Drone is now firmly established in the general public's mind so it stays.  They also pointed out that there is the Drone Bill before parliament which proposes a ban on top end quad copters, compulsory use of FINNS and transponders.   I was told that over 5000 e mails and letters to the CAA have pointed out that the published figures are wrong.  I was asked my views on the cost of a new 10 year passport, EA rod license and a driving license in comparison to the operators annual fee of £16.50 and remember that the Remote pilot does not pay a fee and only registers and is retested every 3 years.

  Obviously some folks will be both but not all. For example under age children will not pay, display pilots will not necessarily pay.  My best guess is that the fee will go up to around £60 tp £90 or more within 3 years. This is based on the notion that folks will not bother to re register  or will just give up the hobby.
There is still confusion as to which category registration is applicable to the general club flyer. I completed the session 2 weeks before my club mate. At the end I had 2 reg numbers, one for Operator and one for Pilot and he had just one. I am sure it will change again.
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FPVSteve

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Re: Flying FPV and the compulsory Observer rules.
« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2019, 09:44:53 AM »

It feels like an exercise in making sure that you comply with the rules rather than being able to concentrate on flying safely.
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BigT

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Re: Flying FPV and the compulsory Observer rules.
« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2019, 09:49:41 AM »

  Hi Big T,

  Well, it's all about the fact it's a BMFA affiliated Club, like a lot of them are. This means that we are insured by the BMFA and as such should be seen to be complying with any rules or the Insurance may be invalidated.
  I have passed my Multirotor basic test which is a LOS flying test BTW.
As for registering ALL Fixed Wing aircraft as "Drones" for £16.50 per year, most of the members are livid at the very idea, not surprising really.
  This whole deal is all about using "Drones" as a way of taxing us and being seen to be controlled in some way by our useless Government.
   The fee of £16.50 is outrageous considering its a glorified Register on someones Laptop...ffs.


                                                                                               :vulture:

 
 

Another thought occurred, years back I got fed up with the behaviour of core members of a flying club I was in so I went off and started my own and ran it my way. Not so easy these days, but a big advantage of multi copters, you donít need a strip or a big bit of land. Just patience and knocking  on enough doors.
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FPVSteve

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Re: Flying FPV and the compulsory Observer rules.
« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2019, 10:29:23 AM »

I agree with you on one hand BigT but multirotors are also a big draw for not joining a club at all. Part of the fun of flying them is to explore new places which is one thing a club doesn't really give you.

When I was a member of BMFA it was as a country member for that reason.
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English Turbines

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Re: Flying FPV and the compulsory Observer rules.
« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2019, 04:49:50 PM »

I agree with you on one hand BigT but multirotors are also a big draw for not joining a club at all. Part of the fun of flying them is to explore new places which is one thing a club doesn't really give you.

When I was a member of BMFA it was as a country member for that reason.

  I agree with Steve on this. Unfortunately, and rather predictably, these Drone rules are going to drive the Quad fliers underground, and the casual freestylers too I suspect.
  Expect to find some blokes in a remote grassy meadow flying quads where they want to, free of the rule makers interference.
The wonderful thing about quads is the accuracy and predictability of your flight path, and the smoothness of flight, even in windy conditions. Now I have got used to mine, I have come to realise they make a wonderful smooth and stable camera platform, even without going to the trouble of a Gimbal Camera. I can regularly get 8kms flight distance on my 5 Inch Quad.
  Add in a GPS and rescue mode and you have a go anywhere filming platform with potentially considerable range using real LR gear.
   The best that can happen, is that the BMFA dont play ball with them and neither do the Quad Fan Boys either, although I expect the latter not to be bothered at all since they fly within a confined area anyway when racing.
   Once again, Taxing the easy obvious targets whilst ignoring criminals and idiots causing trouble wilfully.
   
                                              I hope nobody registers TBH.
                 

                                                                                               :vulture:
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electrotor

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Re: Flying FPV and the compulsory Observer rules.
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2019, 05:55:32 PM »

Once again, Taxing the easy obvious targets whilst ignoring criminals and idiots causing trouble wilfully.

Or to put it another way, making it easy to find and prosecute those who register.
And whilst they are at it, giving the over-stretched Police even less time to catch the real baddies.

This whole half baked business will do nothing to promote safe flying compared to what the likes of the BMFA has been promoting for years with training and safety award schemes. You pass the online idiot based test, you pays your money and then, whoopee, you are safe to fly.
(BTW other responsible modelling organisations exist too.)
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