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Author Topic: Legislation guide - help needed  (Read 379 times)

Shikra

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Legislation guide - help needed
« on: August 08, 2019, 03:22:48 PM »

Hi all, I am updating legislation guide for our club now that I have re-joined. And any other that use it.

Anyone see any errors  in here?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DljvrxC1NDZmi-05MdJ2r-QT1t_Z2BQ70QuWl_7n8f0/edit#gid=0
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electrotor

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Re: Legislation guide - help needed
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2019, 07:22:54 PM »

That's better than the CAA have produced so far. Patent it and licence it to them.

Min distances for pale blue LOS are not N/A. Also persons under your control are not subject to min distances.

Look also at :

PERMISSION – UK Model Aircraft Associations – Operations in excess of 400ft above the surface
https://bmfa.org/DesktopModules/Bring2mind/DMX/Download.aspx?Command=Core_Download&EntryId=3135&language=en-GB&PortalId=0&TabId=1506

CAP 1763  https://bmfa.org/DesktopModules/Bring2mind/DMX/Download.aspx?Command=Core_Download&EntryId=3137&language=en-GB&PortalId=0&TabId=1506

CAP 658 is now out of date and I understand will be revised in due course

It might be worth quoting the actual ANO articles for Other Key Rules (this is one of the parts of CAP 658 which is out of date BTW)
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Shikra

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Re: Legislation guide - help needed
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2019, 04:32:15 PM »

Re: "That's better than the CAA have produced so far. Patent it and licence it to them."
Thanks! Someone else started the ball rolling on another forum. Can’t remember who, but credits to them

Re: “Min distances for pale blue LOS are not N/A. Also persons under your control are not subject to min distances”
I could only find reference to this under SUSA or FPV amendment. Nothing in normal

Amended and added items from your feedback. Started to get a bit too much for a single page so segregated into different tabs for clarity. Trying to maintain a balance of simplicity vs covering key items.
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electrotor

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Re: Legislation guide - help needed
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2019, 12:39:08 AM »

"Min distances" Read (4) below. Is this what you are referring to. Sorry I should have been clearer and not put it on the same line as pale blue LOS.

CAP 658
4.2.3 Article 167 – Small unmanned surveillance aircraft
‘(1) The person in charge of a small unmanned surveillance aircraft must not fly theaircraft in any of the circumstances described in paragraph (2) except in
accordance with a permission issued by the CAA.
(2) The circumstances referred to in paragraph (1) are:
(a) over or within 150 metres of any congested area;
(b) over or within 150 metres of an organised open-air assembly of more than 1,000 persons;
(c) within 50 metres of any vessel, vehicle or structure which is not under the control of the person in charge of the aircraft; or
(d) subject to paragraphs (3) and (4), within 50 metres of any person.
(3) Subject to paragraph (4), during take-off or landing, a small unmanned surveillance aircraft must not be flown within 30 metres of any person.
(4) Paragraphs (2)(d) and (3) do not apply to the person in charge of the small unmanned surveillance aircraft or a person under the control of the person in charge of the aircraft.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2019, 12:43:33 AM by electrotor »
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Shikra

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Re: Legislation guide - help needed
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2019, 02:46:34 PM »

I probably didn't write it very clear.

What I really intended to say was I could not find anything in legislation relating to LOS flying without a camera on board (i.e. not SUSA) and a minimum distance from others. So I have set those fields to "None" unless someone can point out where I have missed it. Irrelevant for us flying FPV on the forum but still need to capture it for my club because of concerns of proximity to a road and a right of way through our field.

Cheers

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electrotor

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Re: Legislation guide - help needed
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2019, 04:07:40 PM »

Generally for SUA you should refer to CAP 658 Chapter 2 4.2.2

There are additional requirements for SUA having a mass between 7kg & 20kg. You will find these in Chapter 5 para 2.

How much will change in the coming months is still a little uncertain. In recent correspondence with the CAA they have stated that they are moving away from the use of the term drone. I have been at them for some time to clarify the difference between a drone and a model aircraft because much confusion exists.
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Shikra

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Re: Legislation guide - help needed
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2019, 08:23:12 PM »

Concept of 358 is good - summary of the ANO relevant to rc aircraft

but then they add for example:
Models Having a Mass from 7 kg to 20 kg SHOULD only be flown At least 50 m clear of persons, vessels, vehicles or structures. This can be reduced
to 30 m for take-off or landing.

Although I would agree that is sensible, It's guidance not legislation..

I would agree

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electrotor

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Re: Legislation guide - help needed
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2019, 02:02:38 AM »

I'm going to be picky here Shikra. It's not a summary of the ANO, it's quite the opposite in that it expands on articles within the ANO in order to provide guidance and what the CAA would consider to be acceptable means of compliance. You yourself refer to this the guidance. Also it is not confined to RC aircraft.

Regarding drones I have started a new thread in order to avoid hijacking your very useful one. It deals with recent correspondence I have had with the CAA. It has already appeared on a couple of Facebook groups.
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BigT

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Re: Legislation guide - help needed
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2019, 06:10:06 PM »

Also worth mentioning that as from Oct 2020 we will probably see more changes with the introduction of C codes for RTF type SUA and the A Code’s for the sites


As I understand the situation (correct me if I have this wrong)  there will be EASA legislation in Oct 2020 that will enforce a C code on the packaging of RTF UAV that will denote the Class of Pilot allowed to own and/or fly the UAV? Not applicable to home built UAV. Also, part of that new legislation will be a further testing regime for recreational UAV pilots. The forthcoming Competency Test is to be called the Foundation Qualification. This test is to be conducted at government establishments, rather like the DVLC theory test. Then there is further legislation to give flying sites a code, “A” I believe, depending on if it’s near or on industrial premises, roads, railways, suburbs etc.

So


1. Foundation test; 40 multiple choice questions, online
2. Additional certificate of competency (CofC); 30 multiple choice questions, at venues run by organisations such as NQE's

Both valid for 5yrs

Limit to VLOS, 400ft from surface

Categories:

A1 - over people - C0-1 types
A2 - 5m horizontally from people, low speed mode + additional competency C0-2 types
      - 30m horizontally from people C0-2 types
A3 - middle of nowhere (not even a park - reasonable expectation that no people will be within 50m+ horizontal, and 150m from residential, commercial, industrial or recreational areas) C0-4 types

Drone class types:

C0 - up to 250g, up to 19m/s, 120m range (RF, geofenced), 24V, no minimum age
C1 - up to 900g / 80J collision energy, 19m/s, frangible, height limit, 24V,  electronic conspicuity, geofencing, lights, [email protected]? down to 81dB in 2024
C2 - up to 4kg, frangible, 48V, 3m/s low speed mode(unless FW), height, electronic conspicuity, geofencing, up to 12dB extra for max weight
C3 - up to 25kg, up to 3m, 48V, automatic control modes + height, electronic conspicuity, geofencing
C4 - up to 25kg, stabilisation, no automation
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 06:38:13 PM by BigT »
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FPVSteve

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Re: Legislation guide - help needed
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2019, 07:16:03 PM »

lol - imagine your 60yr old neighbour and his grandkid reading through these rules and classifications, trying to figure out if they're legally allowed to fly a christmas present in the garden.

GTFO.

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BigT

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Re: Legislation guide - help needed
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2019, 09:22:33 AM »

Just browsing through the various iterations of CAP722. Am I correct in the assumption that CAP 722b lays out the criteria for an organisation to issue the remote pilots practical competency certificate required  by the EASA 2020 regulation? If so it would mean that the LMA BMFA achievement certs would suffice.
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ORCA

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Re: Legislation guide - help needed
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2019, 12:24:57 PM »

"Drone class types:

C0 - up to 250g, up to 19m/s, 120m range (RF, geofenced), 24V, no minimum age
C1 - up to 900g / 80J collision energy, 19m/s, frangible, height limit, 24V,  electronic conspicuity, geofencing, lights, [email protected]? down to 81dB in 2024
C2 - up to 4kg, frangible, 48V, 3m/s low speed mode(unless FW), height, electronic conspicuity, geofencing, up to 12dB extra for max weight
C3 - up to 25kg, up to 3m, 48V, automatic control modes + height, electronic conspicuity, geofencing
C4 - up to 25kg, stabilisation, no automation"

Can I add to this:

C0 - In addition to what is listed above, if a camera or microphone or any data gathering device is fitted it has to be opperated by a registered 'opperator' number afixed and flown by a registerd 'flyer'. No dodging the new regs by going sub 250gm with FPV.

C1, C2, C3 - All these class's call for 'electronic conspicuity' a technology that as far as I am aware, does not yet exist. Therefore nothing currently being flown can fall into one of these class's. Thus, everything not sub 250gm(only none FPV) must therefore fall into the C4 class and consequently be flown in A3 site/airspace.
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BigT

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Re: Legislation guide - help needed
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2019, 03:52:15 PM »

The C2 and C3 groups are the ones that will mostly affect the average fixed wing “club Sunday” flier.  They cover all of my 20 plus models: gasoline, glow and electric fixed wing and rotary and multi.

Additionally my Taranis records telemetry logs of the flights of all my models so does that count as data gathering?

A4 airspace is almost impossible in the UK. Most club sites are on working farms which are industrial units.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2019, 03:57:46 PM by BigT »
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Re: Legislation guide - help needed
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2019, 05:12:50 PM »

Think you may have meant 'A3' not 'A4' site/airspace. It could also be argued that the very act of regularly carrying out a recreational activity ie 'model flying' turns the site(rented club field) into a recreational area and therefore can not be flown over/in. IMO the intended meaning of the various 'areas' needs clarification especially 'industrial' as I would have imagined they meant areas like industrial sites/complex's with buildings on. On the model flying forums I frequent and my clubs Facebook page it is generally accepted that 99.9% of models flown will fall into the 'C4' class by default as 'electronic conspicuity' is not available. The document CAP1789 is very badly worded(must have failed their GCSE English). Clarification and possibly some concessions will be required to turn this gibberish into a working document/guide. Always assuming they don't just want to eliminate us by fiendishly difficult rules and regulations as opposed to just banning us.
As to the telemetry gathered and stored by your Taranis. Yet again a badly worded section that I believe was intended to cover data gathering of third party information(peeping tom/nosey parker/surveillance activity by members of the public especially if its about the activity of the establishment).
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Shikra

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Re: Legislation guide - help needed
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2019, 09:27:54 AM »

Go to feel for the kids of tomorrow.. Crazy world we live in.
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