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Author Topic: Drone and model aircraft registration - latest.  (Read 1667 times)

FPVSteve

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Re: Drone and model aircraft registration - latest.
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2019, 09:22:16 PM »

So explain to me what the point of the register is then? Presumably if someone has been arrested, they've been (or are about to be) charged with a crime anyway and them being a registered drone pilot (or not) is a moot point.

*cough* tax *cough*
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big a

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Re: Drone and model aircraft registration - latest.
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2019, 11:01:59 PM »

So explain to me what the point of the register is then? Presumably if someone has been arrested, they've been (or are about to be) charged with a crime anyway and them being a registered drone pilot (or not) is a moot point.

*cough* tax *cough*
The point is if a suspect is  not registered it  is very easy to prove once they have been arrested.  Also if an individual is registered he cannot claim to be unaware of regulations as he has to have shown some knowledge of regulations to be able to register.

DRES is still deeply flawed though.

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« Last Edit: October 28, 2019, 11:04:48 PM by big a »
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FPVSteve

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Re: Drone and model aircraft registration - latest.
« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2019, 02:25:49 AM »

Maybe that's it - it will be much harder to claim ignorance during a prosecution if you've passed a test that deems you knowledgeable. No more claiming ignorance of the laws.
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BigT

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Re: Drone and model aircraft registration - latest.
« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2019, 09:47:24 AM »

Maybe that's it - it will be much harder to claim ignorance during a prosecution if you've passed a test that deems you knowledgeable. No more claiming ignorance of the laws.
Ignorance of the law has never been an accepted legal defence in the UK since Magna Carta. At best it an excuse and never accepted to defer prosecution. I E ď sorry officer I didnít know my tail light was not workingĒ.
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BigT

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Re: Drone and model aircraft registration - latest.
« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2019, 09:48:19 AM »

So explain to me what the point of the register is then? Presumably if someone has been arrested, they've been (or are about to be) charged with a crime anyway and them being a registered drone pilot (or not) is a moot point.

*cough* tax *cough*

https://bmfa.org/News/News-Page/ArticleID/2626/CHAIRMANS-STATEMENT-CAA-DRONE-AND-MODEL-AIRCRAFT-REGISTRATION-AND-EDUCATION-SCHEME-DRES

The associations our now slightly changing their position and admitting for the first time that the current arrangement is only a stop gap until July 2020 when the whole thing is up for yet another change.

« Last Edit: October 29, 2019, 10:01:02 AM by BigT »
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BigT

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Re: Drone and model aircraft registration - latest.
« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2019, 09:59:21 AM »

That would be a fishing expedition and sounds legally very dubious and is possibly a breach of human rights - I'm sure Liberty would be interested in those kind of shenanigans.  They would need a warrant I suspect to access larger parts of the database.... as indeed they should require one.

I donít agree, my best guess is that it will be written into the drone act which was item 20 in the Queens speech. Which also gives draconian powers to the police in all matters SUA. I E stop and search, confiscation on suspicion, seizure of equipment, forcing suspected illegal operation of drones to cease by enforced landing. (Donít quite see how that one will work). Take into account that as a BMFA member I can access the membership portal and check the status of someone who tells me they have an A, I will also be able to check their DRES number belongs to them. Itís also easy to check full size aircraft registration ownership.
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electrotor

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Re: Drone and model aircraft registration - latest.
« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2019, 01:03:44 AM »

I have questions yet to be answered, perhaps Eric can throw some light.

I think big a has pretty much answered to the best of the BMFA's knowledge at the moment. This whole business has been flawed from the start so I would quite reasonably expect there to still be flaws when it becomes law. I'm sure the Police could well do without yet another burden when we know damn well that registration, by its very nature, will fail to catch the baddies. So in that respect it is utterly pointless. The only real advantage I can see is increased awareness that there such things as the rules of the air. Model flying associations, to their great credit, have been plugging this for years.
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simondale

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Re: Drone and model aircraft registration - latest.
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2019, 08:17:41 PM »

I have questions yet to be answered, perhaps Eric can throw some light.

In this section of the Queens speech, “Police will be given new powers to tackle the "unlawful use" of drones.

This include forcing a person to land a drone and "enhanced stop and search powers" if an offence involving an unmanned aircraft has taken place.

The laws will also apply to model planes and model helicopters.” 

I want to know for sure wether the police will have instant access to the CAA Drone Register or not. K ow one seems to know for sure. Andy Symons, BMFA officer, is of the opinion that they will have to apply through some legal means to get access. Maybe. I am a sceptic but that seems like it defeats the object of the exercise. The police have instant access to DVLC, insurance and MOT register, Electoral Register. I can find out on line who owns a full size plane from its reg number so it just appears logical that the CAA register will be the same. Likewise, how will the LMA or BMFA establish that the reg number on a model relates to the operator or pilot if the register is not public?

Second question: is there a mechanism for de registering if the hobby is dumped by an individual or business?

The Police will not have instant access.  And they can't search by area or anything like that.

They will be able to confirm an operator number is valid by typing it in, along with one personal detail - such as postcode or DOB.  They will get a Green tick to show it's valid.

They will only be able to look up details of a specific operator if it is in reference to a valid investigation into that person. 
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simondale

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Re: Drone and model aircraft registration - latest.
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2019, 08:32:10 PM »

Sorry, it wasn't a plug, I wasn't trying to turn it to my advantage I'm just saying that .... it's been done. People who know how to build these systems recognise how much of a rip off it is. I'm fully aware of the differences in process between a single person working on a side project and the management process (and markup!) that goes along with government processes, regulation etc etc - but there is no way it should cost as much as they're making it out to cost and nor is it that difficult (technologically) to implement. The whole thing is simply bureaucracy at its best (worst).

Take FPVUK for instance - they have a secure membership database, they have a register of people who have passed their A test, they provide insurance and membership cards. You cannot possibly tell me that they spend over £4million per annum on maintaining that system.

It would be trivial for them to develop an application that could allow the police to instantly query whether someone was registered and insured or not.

We spent £2.4m building the 'A' Certificate test...  Not really.

We have this facility for clubs/ events/ insurance providers, etc. to check a membership number is valid: https://members.fpvuk.org/membership-check  It wouldn't be much more than that. 

Mind you, as per my previous post, the Police won't have direct access to the CAA's database.  They will have to make requests in writing to the CAA inititially.  Eventually it is envisaged that it will be part of the PNC and they will be able to do specific lookups as long as they're operating under a specific crime investigation (each lookup would then all be logged against that specific crime reference number).

The Police will not be able to search for all drone owners within 10 miles of a postcode or anything along those lines.  We have been assured of that.  (The technical guys were adamant that definitely was not even possible with this system, never mind permissable).

I maintain my original opinion; drone and model aircraft registration is pointless.  Hopefully it will be scrapped fairly quickly.  (EASA regulations may prevent that happening for longer than would ordinarily be the case).
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BigT

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Re: Drone and model aircraft registration - latest.
« Reply #24 on: November 04, 2019, 09:42:40 AM »

I have been trying, as yet without success, to establish why a SUA operator pilot who is registered in and EU state, such as France or RoI, has to register in the UK when it is specifically noted in the EASA regulation that it is illegal to register in more than one member country. Who in the CAA is the person to answer this?
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electrotor

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Re: Drone and model aircraft registration - latest.
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2019, 05:56:27 PM »

Make what you will of it - not exactly rocket science or even proof of your competence to fly.

Time to complete (pass) = <5 mins. and with no reference to the support material.

https://register-drones.caa.co.uk/
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English Turbines

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Re: Drone and model aircraft registration - latest.
« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2019, 07:30:40 PM »

  What I find annoying about this whole debacle, is the BMFA.

  They have effectively agreed to a number of things they really had no right to do:

1) ALL Radio Controlled Model Aircraft are now officially recognized as "Drones". Why oh why did the BMFA agree that this is the case on behalf of its members everywhere??? Radio Controlled models have been flown since the early 1950s and suddenly, these aircraft all fall under the heading of "Drones"....Really?

2) The BMFA have agreed to collect this Tax on behalf of, and for free for the Government....Why?

3) In their defense, its my understanding that the £9 annual fee (and Registration) will be voluntary and not compulsory. However, this notion is offset by the fact that ALL official BMFA flying sites, GPS locations will be handed over to the powers that be. If they ever employ the Drone Police, its not unrealistic to assume they will regularly patrol these sites looking for easy victims. How long before this £9 fee turns into a much higher figure?

4) As someone who flies FPV at a BMFA site, I feel almost sorry for my fellow members who have all been tarred with the dreaded Drone brush..How long before the BMFA hand over their Membership listings?

5) As we all know, the Criminal fraternity, ANTIFA, Tree Hugging loonies and general imbeciles will still cause trouble, but of course wont be on any Registers anywhere. Im waiting for the Christmas Drone crisis at the next Airport to kick off.

  Why didn't the BMFA just tell them to get lost..?  Especially when you consider how badly they were treated initially.

                                                                                         :vulture:


« Last Edit: November 09, 2019, 07:42:42 PM by English Turbines »
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big a

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Re: Drone and model aircraft registration - latest.
« Reply #27 on: November 09, 2019, 10:30:42 PM »

  What I find annoying about this whole debacle, is the BMFA.

  They have effectively agreed to a number of things they really had no right to do:

1) ALL Radio Controlled Model Aircraft are now officially recognized as "Drones". Why oh why did the BMFA agree that this is the case on behalf of its members everywhere??? Radio Controlled models have been flown since the early 1950s and suddenly, these aircraft all fall under the heading of "Drones"....Really?
The BMFA hasn't agreed at all that all model aircraft are drones. They are all small unmanned aircraft though.
2) The BMFA have agreed to collect this Tax on behalf of, and for free for the Government....Why?
The BMFAs have pushed to be able to deal with registration for their members as a service to their members, one that many wanted.
3) In their defense, its my understanding that the £9 annual fee (and Registration) will be voluntary and not compulsory. However, this notion is offset by the fact that ALL official BMFA flying sites, GPS locations will be handed over to the powers that be. If they ever employ the Drone Police, its not unrealistic to assume they will regularly patrol these sites looking for easy victims. How long before this £9 fee turns into a much higher figure?
Indeed if you don't want to register through the BMFA you don't have to, its entirely optional.  No idea at all where you get the idea that all "BMFA" flying site locations are getting handed over comes from, simply not the case and has never even been considered.
4) As someone who flies FPV at a BMFA site, I feel almost sorry for my fellow members who have all been tarred with the dreaded Drone brush..How long before the BMFA hand over their Membership listings?
  No they haven't been tarred with any brush at all and the BMFA will not be handing over membership listings full stop. Members can if they choose register through the BMFA if they wish, the only data that will be passed to the CAA in those cases is the exact same data that you would give the CAA if you registered directly with the CAA.
5) As we all know, the Criminal fraternity, ANTIFA, Tree Hugging loonies and general imbeciles will still cause trouble, but of course wont be on any Registers anywhere. Im waiting for the Christmas Drone crisis at the next Airport to kick off.
We actually agree on this bit, it's also why that Police wont be knocking on anyones door (apart from the fact they don't have access to a list of those registered) of those who have registered because they are almost certainly not the ones causing an incident.

  Why didn't the BMFA just tell them to get lost..?  Especially when you consider how badly they were treated initially.
Because it would have been an incredibly stupid thing to do, an exercise in shooting themselves in the foot, there is a lot of horsetrading still to do over the registration debacle as well as the upcoming introduction of the EASA regulations in June. Walking away from the table would be a collosally idiotic thing to do.
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BigT

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Re: Drone and model aircraft registration - latest.
« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2019, 12:54:01 AM »

Hereís a useful link on staying legal and the exemptions the associations have negotiated so Far

https://rcc.bmfa.uk/exemptions

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English Turbines

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Re: Drone and model aircraft registration - latest.
« Reply #29 on: November 10, 2019, 04:19:02 PM »

The BMFA hasn't agreed at all that all model aircraft are drones. They are all small unmanned aircraft though.The BMFAs have pushed to be able to deal with registration for their members as a service to their members, one that many wanted.Indeed if you don't want to register through the BMFA you don't have to, its entirely optional.  No idea at all where you get the idea that all "BMFA" flying site locations are getting handed over comes from, simply not the case and has never even been considered.  No they haven't been tarred with any brush at all and the BMFA will not be handing over membership listings full stop. Members can if they choose register through the BMFA if they wish, the only data that will be passed to the CAA in those cases is the exact same data that you would give the CAA if you registered directly with the CAA.We actually agree on this bit, it's also why that Police wont be knocking on anyones door (apart from the fact they don't have access to a list of those registered) of those who have registered because they are almost certainly not the ones causing an incident.
Because it would have been an incredibly stupid thing to do, an exercise in shooting themselves in the foot, there is a lot of horsetrading still to do over the registration debacle as well as the upcoming introduction of the EASA regulations in June. Walking away from the table would be a colossally idiotic thing to do.

*********************************************************************************************

    I still dont think you are getting it are you..?...The BMFA would have been quite within their rights to not agree with ANY of these proposals at all...For a start, Drones or small UAVs, they ALL now have to be registered, in the same manner using the same system.
  Radio Controlled Models have been operated by BMFA members for years and years, responsibly, Insured, on official sites etc, even Flying competency tests...but suddenly they are all "Small UAVs" and need a test a fee and paid licence is applied?

  Collecting funds (Tax) on behalf of Members is NOT something the BMFA should be involved in at all....Its the thin end of the wedge..The people who run the BMFA should know better.
  Ask yourself this question, if the Government fail to collect the funding they anticipate by getting EVERY BMFA member to register, What do you think will happen to that £9 annual fee..?

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