When people talk about the Dragon Link UHF system is that for the video link or simply controlling the plane? Also is it legal in the UK?
Hi fella,
It is a rc control system that runs on 433mhz only - non uk legal! It is vastly over power & on a illegal frequencey for rc control here in the uk.
If you use it you risk being brought down by ham radio users & cheap walkie talkies!! Not mention you'll be breaking uk law - ofcom will hunt you down ;)
Look into ezuhf & Open LRS, both of which have uk legal 459mhz firmware for UHF rc control systems.
As for video, most people use 5.8ghz (5800mhz) as a transmission frequency, this allows them to continue to use 2.4ghz for their rc control without any interference (or 35mhz, 459mhz). People mostly use tech from immersion rc or fatshark, & foxtech plus it's many clones (rebrands).
Immersion rc & fatshark are compatible units so you can use a combination of the immersion rc & fatshark vtx (video transmitter) & vrx (video receiver) to get video, however they both make vtx's at illegal power levels.
The uk legal limit for 5.8ghz is 25mw of power. Immersion rc do a vtx at this power.
However the cheaper & popular foxtech units are totally illegal over here, they transmit outside the uk allocated 5.8ghz frequencey bands as well as at illegal power levels. These units are not compatible with immersion rc or fatshark, and will land you in massive trouble with ofcom if you get caught using them.
You can find these units all over eBay & are branded with many different names for import from china.
Some people use 2.4ghz for video, this allows for slightly better signal penetration of obstacles, trees clouds etc, this does mean however you need to ditch your 2.4ghz rc control system in favour of a 35mhz transmitter or a 459mhz one. Also if anyone near you turns on their 2.4ghz rc control transmitter while you're flying it will do a great job of blinding you, knocking out your video, wifi routers can also have an effect in populated areas.
So 2.4ghz video users usually fly alone out in the wilds. Legal uk power levels for 2.4ghz vtx's is 10mw.
Hope that helps, & over answers your question ;)
Thanks for that excellent explanation Flyn :)
I'm not exactly a beginner in radio, or rc, but knowing immersion and fat shark compatibility for example is valuable info.
A question though...
I'm seriously thinking of going 'back' to 35MHz for rc control, but would really miss the telemetry of the Jeti 2.4GHz conversion I have fitted to a Cockpit SX.
Is there any separate system I could use for equivalent data feedback?
Ron
Telemetry such as voltage etc?
Just use an OSD for all the planes vital statistics - all the info will be right there infront of your eyeballs.
Hi mate, glad the above was helpful.
Info like that is usually scattered far & wide on the net with bits & bobs in many different threads.
Personally I think that sort of explanation should be a sticky or somit on the forum page for people to look at, a data sheet info fpv maybe?
Coyote if you're listening - what do you think, it would help many starting out, choosing kit & staying legal. (unless we already got one & I've just missed it!) EDIT: Or not staying legal - their choice.
As for telemetry most fpv flyers use OSD's (I use Eagle Tree OSD Pro), these On Screen Displays can display & record all flight telemetry data for the user in real time. My ET (eagle tree) is a great bit of kit, it has all the telemetry I need, I can get a live data feed in mid flight to a seperate laptop screen as well as on my goggles - it also records every piece of data that goes through the system for later review & detailed analysis, even allowing a 3 dimensional flightpath to be drawn in google earth. Amazing!
Other systems are available too but I'm loving my ET kit!
It displays & logs:
GSP Speed, direction, height, location, bearing, sats
Battery voltages, mah consumption, live amp draw
Home direction, distance
Climb rate
Rssi (rc signal strength)
You can add other sensors for most other needs too!
Oh it can also stabilise & auto level your plane & RTH (return to home) if you ever loose contact with it, either automatically in the event of rc signal lose or manually If you loose video.
A bit pricy but worth every penny if it saves your plane just one time!
Quote from: Flyn on November 07, 2012, 01:58:46 AM
Hi fella,
It is a rc control system that runs on 433mhz only - non uk legal! It is vastly over power & on a illegal frequencey for rc control here in the uk.
If you use it you risk being brought down by ham radio users & cheap walkie talkies!! Not mention you'll be breaking uk law - ofcom will hunt you down ;)
Look into ezuhf & Open LRS, both of which have uk legal 459mhz firmware for UHF rc control systems.
As for video, most people use 5.8ghz (5800mhz) as a transmission frequency, this allows them to continue to use 2.4ghz for their rc control without any interference (or 35mhz, 459mhz). People mostly use tech from immersion rc or fatshark, & foxtech plus it's many clones (rebrands).
Immersion rc & fatshark are compatible units so you can use a combination of the immersion rc & fatshark vtx (video transmitter) & vrx (video receiver) to get video, however they both make vtx's at illegal power levels.
The uk legal limit for 5.8ghz is 25mw of power. Immersion rc do a vtx at this power.
However the cheaper & popular foxtech units are totally illegal over here, they transmit outside the uk allocated 5.8ghz frequencey bands as well as at illegal power levels. These units are not compatible with immersion rc or fatshark, and will land you in massive trouble with ofcom if you get caught using them.
You can find these units all over eBay & are branded with many different names for import from china.
Some people use 2.4ghz for video, this allows for slightly better signal penetration of obstacles, trees clouds etc, this does mean however you need to ditch your 2.4ghz rc control system in favour of a 35mhz transmitter or a 459mhz one. Also if anyone near you turns on their 2.4ghz rc control transmitter while you're flying it will do a great job of blinding you, knocking out your video, wifi routers can also have an effect in populated areas.
So 2.4ghz video users usually fly alone out in the wilds. Legal uk power levels for 2.4ghz vtx's is 10mw.
Hope that helps, & over answers your question ;)
Flyn, that seems a very comprehensive (and quite depressing) view of the laws. May I ask, how are you managing with 25mw on your ZII? Or have you gone for the 10mw on 2.4?
There's been a relaxation of the rules since the forum separated out from fpvuk. While there's plenty of rules in FPV that are good ideas, I don't think that reciting the legal limits of 5.8 and 2.4 does anyone any favours... and I struggle to think of anyone here that flies on them (whether they choose to admit it or not)
So do we really need a "staying legal" section, when what would be more appropriate is a "typical setup" advise based on what different people in the forum already use ?
Hi fella,
Yes it can seem like that, but you can go a about 1/2 mile with the right antenna on the ground - 16dbi patch with tracking.
I'm not saying you can't - you can get astonishing distances with 25mw with the right antenna combos and tracking
I don't believe it represents a typical setup though.
It's about about making an informed choice, some people may wish to fly totally legally, others may just want the most powerful vtx they can get for as little as possible & to hell with the law.
But with a info page or datasheet at least they could make an informed choice & have all the relevant data to hand.
Like when I started I didn't know that the foxtech/BEVRC kit transmitted outside the uk 5.8 bands or what power levels I could use. It may not be helpful for you but it might help someone on their near vertical learning curve that is FPV. Then they can choose weather they want to buy 25mw or 600mw, or import a cheap chinese vtx whilst being fully aware of their decision.
To be honest I think the levels are too low & in fact cause more of a danger than using a higher power vtx would, as 5.8 dissipates quite quickly at range it wouldn't effect anyone if you use more power.
For most people it's not about max range - it's about link quality, more power equals better video link which equals safer flying with no video loses & crashes etc etc....
Also if you're using FPV or at least VTX's on a hex or heli for commercial work you need to know & use the legal limts of video transmitters.
Thanks, will have to look at the ET kit.
My 'problem' at the mo, is no goggles, no camera, no VTx.
And it will take good few more pension cheques before that is sorted.
Meanwhile, time to get the aircraft flying, trimmed out (ok I know that will change with the video gear) and controllable using the 'back to the future' 35MHz gear.
And telemetry would be good, but with no VTx or goggles etc.....
Never mind, onward and definitely upward :) :)
Ron
EI8GMB - G6IWK
www.bandonmodelflyingclub.com
Quote from: Coomkeen on November 07, 2012, 12:37:21 PM
Thanks, will have to look at the ET kit.
My 'problem' at the mo, is no goggles, no camera, no VTx.
And it will take good few more pension cheques before that is sorted.
Meanwhile, time to get the aircraft flying, trimmed out (ok I know that will change with the video gear) and controllable using the 'back to the future' 35MHz gear.
And telemetry would be good, but with no VTx or goggles etc.....
Never mind, onward and definitely upward :) :)
Ron
EI8GMB - G6IWK
www.bandonmodelflyingclub.com (http://www.bandonmodelflyingclub.com)
Ahh, ok I see. Not having any of that stuff can hamper buying an osd. I must say if you need to buy that gear first I'd probably hold off on the eagle tree stuff, there are cheaper osd's on ebay that will do a basic & very good job, maybe take a look at those too??
I seem to remember reading something about a UHF 433 telemetry system. This might be worth doing a google search for - can anyone else help here?
not sure if legal here, but it should be as it's not for rc control
Quote from: Flyn on November 07, 2012, 12:03:22 PM
It's about about making an informed choice, some people may wish to fly totally legally, others may just want the most powerful vtx they can get for as little as possible & to hell with the law.
But with a info page or datasheet at least they could make an informed choice & have all the relevant data to hand.
Like when I started I didn't know that the foxtech/BEVRC kit transmitted outside the uk 5.8 bands or what power levels I could use. It may not be helpful for you but it might help someone on their near vertical learning curve that is FPV. Then they can choose weather they want to buy 25mw or 600mw, or import a cheap chinese vtx whilst being fully aware of their decision.
To be honest I think the levels are too low & in fact cause more of a danger than using a higher power vtx would, as 5.8 dissipates quite quickly at range it wouldn't effect anyone if you use more power.
For most people it's not about max range - it's about link quality, more power equals better video link which equals safer flying with no video loses & crashes etc etc....
I absolutely agree with everything you've said. So I think, yep do a sticky somewhere about whats available - and pros/cons of each, along with some examples of what people have chosen, why they chose it, and what results they get.
Is Coyote reading this... if so, what's your opinion ?
Quote from: Flyn on November 07, 2012, 12:50:44 PM
Quote from: Coomkeen on November 07, 2012, 12:37:21 PM
Thanks, will have to look at the ET kit.
My 'problem' at the mo, is no goggles, no camera, no VTx.
And it will take good few more pension cheques before that is sorted.
Meanwhile, time to get the aircraft flying, trimmed out (ok I know that will change with the video gear) and controllable using the 'back to the future' 35MHz gear.
And telemetry would be good, but with no VTx or goggles etc.....
Never mind, onward and definitely upward :) :)
Ron
EI8GMB - G6IWK
www.bandonmodelflyingclub.com (http://www.bandonmodelflyingclub.com)
Ahh, ok I see. Not having any of that stuff can hamper buying an osd. I must say if you need to buy that gear first I'd probably hold off on the eagle tree stuff, there are cheaper osd's on ebay that will do a basic & very good job, maybe take a look at those too??
I seem to remember reading something about a UHF 433 telemetry system. This might be worth doing a google search for - can anyone else help here?
not sure if legal here, but it should be as it's not for rc control
Thanks Flynn,
Think it should be 459(?) over here. Is that right?
But a 'stand alone' telemetry system might make sense anyway.
Thanks again.
Ron
EI8GMB - G6IWK
www.bandonmodelflyingclub.com
No problem Ron,
433 for rc control is illegal here but unsure about telemetry as its not a control system, you can use it to transmit voice so why not data??
Yes 459 is uk legal rc control freq.
I forgot to ask Ron, why are you going back to 35mhz?
It would seem a shame to buy telemetry kit twice, why not stick with 2.4 control & tel & start buying vtx/vrx etc.
You don't need goggles right away you can get 7" 12v screens for about £30 on ebay (or less), then when you have the video kit you can get osd with telemetry for about £50 & then move back to 35mhz still keeping all your vtx/vrx screen & osd & not having to buy a second telemetry unit etc.
Sorry I dont mean to tell you how to do your hobby, it's just me - I hate to buy stuff twice over.
Quote from: Flyn on November 07, 2012, 12:03:22 PM
It's about about making an informed choice, some people may wish to fly totally legally, others may just want the most powerful vtx they can get for as little as possible & to hell with the law.
But with a info page or datasheet at least they could make an informed choice & have all the relevant data to hand.
Like when I started I didn't know that the foxtech/BEVRC kit transmitted outside the uk 5.8 bands or what power levels I could use. It may not be helpful for you but it might help someone on their near vertical learning curve that is FPV. Then they can choose weather they want to buy 25mw or 600mw, or import a cheap chinese vtx whilst being fully aware of their decision.
To be honest I think the levels are too low & in fact cause more of a danger than using a higher power vtx would, as 5.8 dissipates quite quickly at range it wouldn't effect anyone if you use more power.
For most people it's not about max range - it's about link quality, more power equals better video link which equals safer flying with no video loses & crashes etc etc....
Flyn, you never really answered my question about what you were using, but that aside, I'm not sure it's right to suggest gear (or appear to) based on recitation of the 'law' to a newcomer to FPV. If we were all to follow that to the letter (and I suggest you're not) as well as 99.9% of us here, then we would not be able to enjoy any worthwhile flying.
My suggestion to newcomers is try and hook up with a local FPV'er who does it right. Be prepared to build up your system slowly, but buy the right gear first time. Fly under an experienced flyers guidance to build your confidence and learn the pitfalls that will quickly get you out of the game, after losing money.
UHF (Dragon Link in my case), 600mw VTX, CP antenna's and patch and a well set up plane and AP / OSD are essentials to successful FPV.
2p from me!
Yes, good point about 433.
And, having more thinking time, you are right about staying with 2.4 until I get VTx etc. set up.
And a cheap screen would do it to start with.
Presumably, even if I didn't have a camera to start with, the screen could display the telemetry.
I suppose I've had a few experiences over the years where 35 has kept control even when los has been lost (like over the back of the slope), and last year the same scene happened on the slope with 2.4 but the rc 'lost it' (the tx was beeping) and the electric glider buried its nose in a bog.
Lucky it was a bog, not a rock.
Ron
EI8GMB - G6IWK
www.bandonmodelflyingclub.com
So are you talking of a sort of flow chart setup with if you choose (A) then x,y and z will work with it ? Then if you choose (B) what products you would have to use to be compatible with that choice ?
One version for staying legal, the other for not ?
Quote from: Coomkeen on November 07, 2012, 01:40:19 PM
Yes, good point about 433.
And, having more thinking time, you are right about staying with 2.4 until I get VTx etc. set up.
And a cheap screen would do it to start with.
Presumably, even if I didn't have a camera to start with, the screen could display the telemetry.
I suppose I've had a few experiences over the years where 35 has kept control even when los has been lost (like over the back of the slope), and last year the same scene happened on the slope with 2.4 but the rc 'lost it' (the tx was beeping) and the electric glider buried its nose in a bog.
Lucky it was a bog, not a rock.
Ron
EI8GMB - G6IWK
www.bandonmodelflyingclub.com (http://www.bandonmodelflyingclub.com)
I think it would be good to do that with a cheap screen, it might work just displaying the OSD, I must say I've not tried it, but you can get cameras for about £20, it wont be great but it'll get you going & wont cost a lot to replace if you crash.
Yes that is a drawback with 2.4 - it doesn't like obstacles too much. But all systems have pros & cons, 2.4 wont ditch your plane if someone else switches on a 2.4 rc tx next to you, whereas the 35megs can if using same crystals (as I'm sure you know), you will get slightly more range from a 35mhz system though.
Also if you use 2.4 & have a osd with autopilot RTH the plane will bring itself back into RF range, all you gotta do is sit & wait.
Quote from: Coyote on November 07, 2012, 01:43:34 PM
So are you talking of a sort of flow chart setup with if you choose (A) then x,y and z will work with it ? Then if you choose (B) what products you would have to use to be compatible with that choice ?
One version for staying legal, the other for not ?
Hi Ian,
that sounds pretty cool, if thats easy to do?
You could put on pro's & cons with your choices & any legalities & also maybe links to trusted suppliers?
I tell ya, I would've killed for such a resource when I was starting out.
It can be done, but as soon as you get past the first decision the options get more universal and it will snowball. I`d have to have a think of how to do it so its more manageable and bite size but yeah it could be done
Coyote, I think back over on fpvuk.org there was always several sections dedicated to what frequencies were allowed, what was legal and what the pro's and cons were. These, I thought were useful, but people still seem to be unsure of how to put a system together, and the common phrase seems to be "I don't want to go far, just a few miles at first"
I thought it might help to see examples of what people are flying - why they put it together that way, and the results they are getting. I don't think it's black and white enough to say legal/not legal. As if I said "give me a legal setup", there's still many choices to make in terms of different setups. I tend to think that people make up their minds based on the setups and results other people get, rather than knowing all the facts and independently going off and doing things.
Quote from: Flyboysee on November 07, 2012, 01:28:41 PM
Quote from: Flyn on November 07, 2012, 12:03:22 PM
It's about about making an informed choice, some people may wish to fly totally legally, others may just want the most powerful vtx they can get for as little as possible & to hell with the law.
But with a info page or datasheet at least they could make an informed choice & have all the relevant data to hand.
Like when I started I didn't know that the foxtech/BEVRC kit transmitted outside the uk 5.8 bands or what power levels I could use. It may not be helpful for you but it might help someone on their near vertical learning curve that is FPV. Then they can choose weather they want to buy 25mw or 600mw, or import a cheap chinese vtx whilst being fully aware of their decision.
To be honest I think the levels are too low & in fact cause more of a danger than using a higher power vtx would, as 5.8 dissipates quite quickly at range it wouldn't effect anyone if you use more power.
For most people it's not about max range - it's about link quality, more power equals better video link which equals safer flying with no video loses & crashes etc etc....
Flyn, you never really answered my question about what you were using, but that aside, I'm not sure it's right to suggest gear (or appear to) based on recitation of the 'law' to a newcomer to FPV. If we were all to follow that to the letter (and I suggest you're not) as well as 99.9% of us here, then we would not be able to enjoy any worthwhile flying.
My suggestion to newcomers is try and hook up with a local FPV'er who does it right. Be prepared to build up your system slowly, but buy the right gear first time. Fly under an experienced flyers guidance to build your confidence and learn the pitfalls that will quickly get you out of the game, after losing money.
UHF (Dragon Link in my case), 600mw VTX, CP antenna's and patch and a well set up plane and AP / OSD are essentials to successful FPV.
2p from me!
Sorry mate, thought I did, posted I can get about 1/2 mile max with my 16dbi patch & tracker on 5.8. The ZII flies on spekrtum 2.4 for christ sakes, I aint going far! I fly at my local bmfa club most of the time, & when I fly FPV there I try to keep everyone sweet & not give them any ammo against FPV so I use 25mw.
You misunderstand my posts, they were to make any newcomer aware of the countries legalities of using this kit not tell them they need to use low powered kit! It is totally up to them to what they choose to do with that information, use it or ignore it & I clearly mentioned more powerful kit that is available to them but that this kit is not legal here. A quick google search will provide them the relevant links to buy this kit, but it seems you're focusing on the odd sentences where I mention the legal power levels for this country & taking it to mean I'm trying to make them comply.
As I said above its about an informed choice, people see these foxtech 200mw & 400mw vtxs out there & think "oh, it must be ok as I can just click a button & get one on my doorstep in 2 weeks", but in reality these aren't as they don't even broadcast in a legal band let alone at legal powers! When I first started I had one because I didn't know any different (plus they were cheap!) & I had to buy again due to this fact.
Mate I don't mean to get my panties in a bunch but laws are laws, I didn't make them, I don't enforce them, I even stated above that I think they current levels are not quite enough/right - so please dont shoot me for telling people about them. Its up to them if they abide by them or break them, its no skin off my nose... I can choose to break them, so can you & so can they, anyone can, its easy to do & that is what I'm getting at, you can do it & not even know!
Yes I totally agree with hooking up with an experienced flyer as the knowledge that can be gained this way is invaluable & I advocate that wholeheartedly - but that is a completely different discussion. We are talking about a quick look guideline type page for people to look at & read & decide for themselves which products & power levels they wish to use but at the same time making them aware that by using the powerful kit they will be breaking current law, because most newcomers just wont know. It's only fair to make them aware of any possible legal risks in their equipment choices.
Something I didn't have when I started out.
& yes in an ideal world your setup is perfect for FPV everytime....
So in a nutshell to stay legal just get high gain aerials as it can more than double the range of video link.
Quote from: JezUK1 on November 07, 2012, 04:54:12 PM
So in a nutshell to stay legal just get high gain aerials as it can more than double the range of video link.
Yes pretty much, however the higher the gain antenna the more directional it becomes, you can put two next to each other facing slightly out to cover a wider area or you can use a tracker like a lot of people do.
You have to double (or is it quadruple) your vtx power to double your range but you only need to add 3dbi to you VRX's antenna to do the same.
(edit dbi not dpi!!)
Also staying legal is a good thing to do (obviously) but legal power levels aren't too great, they work, but you will have to way up the risks of not staying legal, most people use 100mw or 600mw for best results in video links.
I'm assuming with the tracker it obviously it still has to be line of sight / Any trees or buildings would be a major problem?
Also I'm assuming the aerial will rotate following the craft?
Not sure what adding 3 dots per inch to your receiver will do Flyn :)
( predictive text strikes again ? )
Yeah especially on 2.4 or 5.8Ghz video and control LOS must be kept with the model. The tracker follows the plane and pointing the antenna at it yes. Again though, not recommended for beginners.
Damn the iPad autocorrect!!
What do you mean LOS must be kept with the model? Also why is it not recommend for newbies?
The model must stay in Line Of sight so your video signal can return to the receiver and your control signal can get to the model.
Its not recommended because it gets more complicated, to first get a rock solid system using only a camera and vtx that transmits a clean signal at its full potential without killing your control range is hard enough at first, complicating a systems brings up many more potential failure points and more things to go wrong.
Starting FPV with a tracker also promotes poor flying discipline as well which you really need to get sorted first. Learning what areas you can fly within on a static antenna is one of the first steps to understanding what your doing, then repeating with higher gain antennas disciplines you to subconsciously think about the antennas pattern and what to do if your at the edge of it.
Aww ok that makes sense thanks.