BMFA Safety Achievement Scheme - FPV Extension

[BigT]

The FPV Extension for fixed wing and multi is here

http://achievements.bmfa.org/guidance-booklets/fpv-extension-for-fixed-wing-multi-rotors

[BigT]

Actually hads a read of the FPV extension.  Major issue for me is that a GPS is not allowed and must be removed or at the least disconnected.  So I think the majority of AP's will not work without a GPS.  It looks as if this is aimed at the "chuck a camera on a powered glider for a laugh" brigade.

[Gundummy]

Actually hads a read of the FPV extension.  Major issue for me is that a GPS is not allowed and must be removed or at the least disconnected.  So I think the majority of AP's will not work without a GPS.  It looks as if this is aimed at the "chuck a camera on a powered glider for a laugh" brigade.

Can you elaborate Tim? Surely disabling the GPS would also disable the safety features on the AP?

[Brucey]

Sounds like the the classic BMFA not having a clue about FPV yet again

[Ratty]

The BFPVRA are involved too, so dont worry, your drone racing interests are being looked after.  ;D

RTH failsafe via GPS is still not allowed at the moment anyway, as motors must shut off on failsafe. Because free fall is safer than RTH.

[FPVSteve]

Freefall = guaranteed crash (the only variable is who or what it falls onto)
RTH = a chance at saving it. If not, see above.

I'm confused how anyone can say freefall is safer than the plane coming home.

A lot of these regulations would write themselves if they were allowed to:

FPVers stay <=400ft above surface
VFR pilots (real world) stay >= 500ft above surface.

Ensure separation from aerodromes and structures as per ANO.


That completely solves the airspace safety dillemma.

That leaves the issue of safety for those on the ground... RTH is surely a safer option in that case than freefall.

I should work for the EASA.

[BigT]

Can you elaborate Tim? Surely disabling the GPS would also disable the safety features on the AP?

"Gyros, Electronic Stabilisation and GPS
It is acceptable to use an electro-mechanical or solid state gyro/s in a model being used to take the test although electronic stabilisation is restricted to flight enabling and self levelling only. This allows a range of flight controllers / gyros to be fitted, from simple yaw dampers to solid state heading lock units.
The use of any autopilot, GPS and/or waypoint programming, which may or may not be designed into such units beyond the definition above, is not acceptable during the test.
Candidates should be prepared to explain the capabilities of the system they are using and show that it does not take over control from the pilot and that automated flight will not be achieved during the test.
GPS must not be used during any test."

I think they have got there facts cocked here.  As I read this you can use self leveling, AKA STB Mode on a MFD, but not an Autopilot.  I think they mean you cannot program waypoints or use features such as circle or 3D.  But we must remember that this is aimed at pilots who fly within the UK legal regs, so chuck a 25mw vtx and camera in a 1 kg trainer and go for a flight round the patch with an observer so RTH etc is not needed in their world.   

[Ratty]

Your mistake Steve is assuming these high paid "experts" use logic.  ;D

But if you are following all the rules, and are doing the FPVz in an empty filed hovering above grass like a good lad then the options are:

Freefall = goes straight down onto grass.
RTH works = Lands on grass
RTH fails = returns to DJI (or null island)  ;D

That is what i assume they they are thinking. I agree with you tho.

[BlueFlyer]

RTH failsafe via GPS is still not allowed at the moment anyway, as motors must shut off on failsafe. Because free fall is safer than RTH.

This is incorrect. Since Sep 2014 it has been permitted to make use of electronic stability and/or programmable flight control if a model has that capability.

https://bmfa.org/News/News-Page/ArticleID/2127/Advanced-Failsafe-Options-for-Rotorcraft

Clearly the most significant benefit is the opportunity to programme a controlled descent or a return to home as a lawful option, whilst we are aware that many flyers have been using this option for sometime it is now recognized by the CAA as lawful alternative to the previous failsafe requirements.

Please be aware that for fixed wing aircraft the requirements are unchanged and failsafe activation should bring the throttle to idle or off.

[BigT]

This is not talking about general rules... it's talking about assessments. When you're being tested, you're allowed some form of stability enabling device on your plane, just not an autopilot or GPS.

That PDF is f£$k all about new rules and regs by the EASA, it's a guidebook for examiners within the BMFA, so completely pointless to be linked to this conversation.

Calm down mate! This conversation morfed into a dialogue about the new extension to the achievement program, that's all. The point I was making to the BMFA was their definition of Autopilot and GPS. For example I have a MFD AP installed but it must have GPS connected to work. But I want to fly in STB mode as that's easier or safer. I don't want waypoints or circle or 3D just STB mode. Get it? It's the definition of autopilot. Do they mean Autominous Flight?

[BigT]

Your mistake Steve is assuming these high paid "experts" use logic.  ;D

But if you are following all the rules, and are doing the FPVz in an empty filed hovering above grass like a good lad then the options are:

Freefall = goes straight down onto grass.
RTH works = Lands on grass
RTH fails = returns to DJI (or null island)  ;D

That is what i assume they they are thinking. I agree with you tho.

See the thing is if you are flying at a BMFA club under regs and rules and uk laws, failsafing into earth would be OK. You would be no more than 200 meters away and not over anything. That's the mind set.

[Ratty]

At my BMFA club we have the public walking around all the time. Across the strip, picnicing at the end of the strip and just generally standing in stupid places. A falling model could easily land on someone even when flying fully with in the rules.

I am surprised the club has not been shut down, (its been there for over 30 years) in my 6 years going there i have seen multiple LOS big petrol models crashed near by standers. But the old boys there think they are perfectly safe.

We are not allowed to fly FPV below 3m as club rule. Too many stupid people walking about which they think we will hit.

[BlueFlyer]

Calm down mate! This conversation morfed into a dialogue about the new extension to the achievement program, that's all. The point I was making to the BMFA was their definition of Autopilot and GPS. For example I have a MFD AP installed but it must have GPS connected to work. But I want to fly in STB mode as that's easier or safer. I don't want waypoints or circle or 3D just STB mode. Get it? It's the definition of autopilot. Do they mean Autominous Flight?

My concern was that someone might click on the thread that's titled EASA latest update on proto rules, then read all that about GPS not being allowed. The waters got muddied is all I'm saying.... the "no GPS" rule is for BMFA assessments, not part of EASA's latest rules and I just think it would have been better to have 2 different threads.

Sorry if you thought I wasn't being calm

[Dillwhacker]

IMO you were calm and clear Blue.

[electrotor]

I have split this from the original thread as it deals specifically with the BMFA Safety Achievement Scheme and not the EASA prototype Rules.

You will see that each post has been edited, but only to correct the subject and thereby avoid confusion.

Please continue the discussion.