It all seems to be coming thick and fast these days what with the FAA, then the IAA. Rest easy for a while though as EASA is still at the early stages. Anyway, it's maybe just as well to have a heads up on developments within Europe. Bear in mind however that currently EASA does not regulate all aspects of civilian aviation within the EU. Model flying for instance is still left up the the national aviation authorities.
http://easa.europa.eu/easa-and-you/civil-drones-rpas (http://easa.europa.eu/easa-and-you/civil-drones-rpas)
Extract from above link :
Next steps
In 2016 and 2017, new rules will be developed, or existing ones will be amended, within the framework described in the Technical Opinion. Also, guidance material, including safet promotion, will become available. All relevant work will be made available on this part of the EASA website.
http://www.easa.europa.eu/document-library/opinions/opinion-technical-nature (http://www.easa.europa.eu/document-library/opinions/opinion-technical-nature)
Again very general
http://www.easa.europa.eu/system/files/dfu/EASA%20Drone%20Safety%20Leaflet_web.pdf (http://www.easa.europa.eu/system/files/dfu/EASA%20Drone%20Safety%20Leaflet_web.pdf)
ABout as detailed as it get for now. Most of us are already sticking to this anyway, well most of the time.
Theoretical question for the members on here.
If we were put in a position like the FAA are putting US citizens under, i.e. enforced registration... would you register? Or would you try your luck and see how you got on? Or would you just hang up your wings?
Quote from: Steve W on December 22, 2015, 10:08:23 PM
Theoretical question for the members on here.
If we were put in a position like the FAA are putting US citizens under, i.e. enforced registration... would you register? Or would you try your luck and see how you got on? Or would you just hang up your wings?
I suppose I could register because that is not going to stop me flying low over fields where the danger is near zero.
The only reason they are doing this is so they can employ people to drive around all day looking for RC flyers. Then they will ask the bloke flying for his registration number. If he ain't got one he will end up with a hefty fine and probably some time in nick. It's a money making machine. That's it.
It's worth taking two planes when you fly, if someone turns up just put the one your flying in circle mode and wait till they've gone off!
Don't you think that if they were going to go through the trouble of sending out "enforcement" people that they'd have the power to stop you from flying if they saw you flying illegally? Even if you were registered?
Well that's the whole point. If you fly illegally you get fined, if you are also not registered then you may as well pull your pants down and take it like man.
You might get pulled over because you failed to renew your tax disk in time and you get a fine. Then it turns out you haven't paid your insurance and your still on a provisional. Lol. Pull your pants down time again.
I have taken the liberty of copying the links from another thread but simply because it is relevant to this one. Thanks to big a for the links.
It just shows what a sensible approach can be taken when the regulator and interested parties have a good dialogue.
ANNUAL MEETING OF CAA / MODEL AIRCRAFT ASSOCIATIONS
http://www.bmfa.org/Downloads/All-Downloads?Command=Core_Download&EntryId=1568 (http://www.bmfa.org/Downloads/All-Downloads?Command=Core_Download&EntryId=1568) the LMA have also reported on the meeting at http://www.largemodelassociation.com/resources/over-20kg-scheme/annual-meeting-with-the-caa-2015/ (http://www.largemodelassociation.com/resources/over-20kg-scheme/annual-meeting-with-the-caa-2015/)
This is the best piece of writing I've yet seen on the problems surrounding Registration:-
Copied from http://fpvcentral.net/2015/12/why-drone-registration-solves-nothing/ (http://fpvcentral.net/2015/12/why-drone-registration-solves-nothing/)
Why drone registration solves nothing
December 22, 2015 11:50 | By fpvcentral | 1 Comment
"Drone registration", as the FAA calls it, makes a lot of sense. That is, until you start thinking about it
beyond the usual talking points. Here's why it actually does not solve any problems whatsoever.
The talking points sound really convincing at first glance: Registration enables the authorities to
track down irresponsible operators if there's an accident, it gives them an idea how many owners
there are in a given area, it helps educate owners about the regulations, and it makes our skies safer
for everyone.
Unfortunately none of that is true, and here is why.
1) Bad guys don't register their gear.
At the end of the day, if someone wants to do something silly, they can just not register their multicopter and fly recklessly. They get the benefit of being able to vanish without a trace. Tracking someone via the purchase trail of their recovered model is impossible if they're using individual components instead of buying RTF models. Registration doesn't solve this.
2) Even registered owners may remove their ID if they're planning something stupid.
Think about it: If someone is registered, but they plan to do something illegal, they can remove the ID number from the model at any point before flight. So really, the only time you will get an ID from a copter is when someone's accidentally breaking the rules, not when they are intentionally breaking them. Registration does not help here either.
3) Registration IDs are easy to forge.
It's just a number. Evil operators may easily snap a picture of your ID number at the flying field or at a model air show, and then put that number on their own models. Registration actually creates a new problem here.
4) Forged IDs cause a reversal of the burden of proof.
Someone flew a multicopter in a city and the police recovered it with YOUR ID on it. But it's not your multicopter. How do you prove that you did not own that model to begin with? The police have their proof, it's your ID. Now suddenly you're in a position where you have to provide proof for your innocence.
Even real IDs cause a reversal of the burden of proof.
Someone steals your multicopter and does something stupid with it – it's your copter, your ID, but you didn't fly it. Have fun explaining – and proving – that to the authorities.
5) Why does the FAA need to know that you own a multicopter again?
Ok so they build a database of all RC models in the United States (and soon, Europe) – why? What do they gain from that knowledge? There is no tangible gain in safety, and did they ever justify how a potential gain justifies this? Turns out, no they did not.
6) Why does registration cost money again?
I get that they want to tie it to your person via your credit card – but why five dollars? Why not one dollar, or ten cents? Or why not use a different means of proof of identity? If the goal is to register pilots, you'd want the maximum amount of compliance. The reason is return of investment in the registration system, of course. At least registration is currently per-pilot, but it is not certain that Europe will be as smart about that aspect yet...
7) Why does registration expire again?
So you registered and paid five bucks... why do you have to register again in a few years? Because chances are the terms of registration will be even more restrictive next time around. Perhaps you'll be required to register each model, with a maximum of 10 models, then later just 5, or 2...
8) Registration doesn't make us safer.
It does the opposite: Legal, law-abiding RC modelers are now forced to pay regularly for a registration which only serves to be able to hurt them with excessive fines in case of an accident. And bad guys who want to use RC models for nefarious purposes are already ready to break the law, so why should they register?
If bad guys can just not register their models, if the ID is easy to fake, if registration only catches those who violate rules by accident or not on their own fault, if it doesn't prevent anyone from doing something bad in the first place, and if it isn't even certain the authorities fine the right person based on that easy to fake ID number... why are we doing this again?
Because it sounds good, provided you don't think about it too much.
Interesting reply and emphasising the only real positive I can see so far in registration - pointing people in the direction of responsible flying.
Drone registration solves nothing if a drone pilot chooses to break the rules and fly irresponsibly. However, the FAA appears to be trying to give people the opportunity to get educated about safe and responsible flying, much like how one needs a driver's license in order to drive a car. Getting a driver's license means at some point you demonstrated to an official that you learned how to drive. Renewing it means that you continue agree to drive responsibly according to the laws of the land. On the other hand, it won't stop an unlicensed driver from getting in a car and driving safely or recklessly, but if caught, there will be consequences. True, an unlicensed drone pilot has less likelihood that he will get caught, but at least more pilots will have the opportunity to learn about safety through the registration process. Oh, and in any registration program, there are costs in administering the program–is $5 really a big deal when the a/c costs several hundred? And for the record, I, as an AMA member, am taking the AMAs advice and holding off registering until the AMA can either get the FAA to accept AMA membership as registration, or not.
As regards forging IDs, the forger doesn't even need to snap a picture. The database will be publicly available, which is already an issue.
So the CAA actually asked this off the record
"The CAA did ask that any video footage on YouTube or similar of naughty things being done with any form of drone or model aircraft be sent to them for investigation, so if you see anything like that, please let us know."
You have been warned
Anyone else think it was a bad move for FPVUK not to be there?
Oh and remember the next time you stick a finger in a prop, send in your MOR to the CAA
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I don't have time to cut and paste thousands of links to the CAA......
USA To Require Registration of Toy Planes
FAA ANOUNCES NEW RULES AND REGULATIONS FOR HOBBY DRONE OWNERS
Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) announced that starting February 21 2016 hobby drone owners and model aircraft operators will have to follow new rules and regulations. All owners and hobbyists will need to be registered to a database maintained by the FAA. Each drone will need to have a unique identification number displayed on each drone that weighs more than 0.5 pounds.
The owner operator is required to wear an arm band issued by the FAA. FAA spokesman Herman Gerbiles explained; "the wearing of the armband is so that the public can identify a 'droner' from a regular citizen" The FAA says the wearing of the armband is only a temporary requirement. "The need for the armband will only be till all the drone owners can be tattooed with their unique FAA issued serial number." Mr. Gerbiles explained.
The FAA concedes that these current regulations are only an initial solution while the agency works on a final solution which the agency says will entail the relocation of drone owners to special camps in order to assure the safety of the public at large. "I think they, the type that like to fly drones, will be happier if they are all concentrated into areas where they can be amongst their own types and leave normal citizens alone. The agency is currently looking at Kansas and Wyoming as potential camp locations." The camps will have jaunting fun names such 'CAMP FREEDOM' and 'STALAG FPV'.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?p=33476672
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Oh no!
I'm allergic to needles !!
:laugh:
Why the hell do you need an armband when you've got a f$&@!?g TX in your hands and goggles on your head?
If anybody personally knows the pillock that came up with that, please punch him in the face as hard as you possibly can!
Lola... read it again lol
Put tongue in cheek ;)
Quote from: Gundummy on December 24, 2015, 06:50:00 PM
Lola... read it again lol
Put tongue in cheek ;)
...still punch him. Lol
Haha, what a gas you are Gundummy.
:pleasantry:
Quote from: BigT on December 24, 2015, 10:49:34 AM
So the CAA actually asked this off the record
"The CAA did ask that any video footage on YouTube or similar of naughty things being done with any form of drone or model aircraft be sent to them for investigation, so if you see anything like that, please let us know."
You have been warned
Asked this to who? Who are the potential dirty rats/snitches/squealers/whistle-blowers?
regardless... that's another 40+ videos I've just deleted from my youtube account (most were private anyway, but I'm taking no chances)
Thing is... none of them showed - without reasonable doubt - anything illegal... I just got rid of videos that had my face in them, had other things that could be used to identify me, or any OSD footage that shows possible distances/altitudes deemed as out of LOS.
it's a shame really that it's come to this.
As for the earlier question...
Quote from: Steve W on December 22, 2015, 10:08:23 PM
Theoretical question for the members on here.
If we were put in a position like the FAA are putting US citizens under, i.e. enforced registration... would you register? Or would you try your luck and see how you got on? Or would you just hang up your wings?
I would have to think long and hard, and weigh up the pros and cons... but I have 2 solutions already in mind...
1) Register to stay legal, but I'd have to buy 25mw 5.8 gear and an AAT system such as MFD AAT for use with high gain directional antennas, and drastically reign in my flying style/habits to stay within unaided visual LOS of my buddy... and of course, never fly alone.
Very costly... both financially and personally... it wouldn't be the hobby I love anymore, and I'd be much more restricted to flying only when my buddy is available.
2) Not register, and sell all my FPV gear... which would have been drastically de-valued due to the restrictions
Again, very costly... I added up how much I've spent in hobbyking alone since I've been a registered customer with them.... lets say it's a small fortune.
NOT registering, but still flying as normal is not an option for me, not in my job.
I'm definitely leaning more towards option number 2... I don't think I'd get anywhere as near as much enjoyment out of option 1
Quote from: BlueFlyer on December 25, 2015, 07:34:33 PM
another 40+
it's a shame really that it's come to this.
I would have to think long and hard,
it wouldn't be the hobby I love anymore,
Cheers Blue, that is a sad thing to read...seriously, it is a bit depressing.
You have depressed me and ruined my whole Christmas...
I'm going now to bite my own head off...
;D
Quote from: Dillwhacker on December 25, 2015, 11:33:56 PM
Cheers Blue, that is a sad thing to read...seriously, it is a bit depressing.
You have depressed me and ruined my whole Christmas...
I'm going now to bite my own head off...
;D
haha, don't do that... drink yourself into a stupor instead :)
Unfortunately, I'm not the only one who feels like this.... fingers crossed the CAA don't take any notice of what the yanks do in their own little world across the pond.
Quote from: BlueFlyer on December 25, 2015, 11:45:10 PM
haha, don't do that... drink yourself into a stupor instead :)
Unfortunately, I'm not the only one who feels like this.... fingers crossed the CAA don't take any notice of what the yanks do in their own little world across the pond.
Steaming herd of worthless retards they are, IMO..
I hope we don't copy them...
Cheers dude, thanks again,
T
In other news I saw a "drone" in Poundland the other day near the counter. Not a quid, but it was up for £30... looked like a cheap knockoff Phantom.
Wonder how many of those were sold............... :o
Surely the only way to enforce this registration idea in the States is to get the drone registered at the point of sale. As another post said the bad guys aren't going to register anyway. No registration, no sale.
Don't know how that would work buying second-hand though.
I personally wouldn't have a problem with such a scheme over here as I don't fly long distance.
Usually the people who are up in arms about this kind of thing are the ones breaking the law and are worried they'll get caught.
Cheers, Mark
Western, it's not just flying long distance that's breaking the law, many aspects in FPV are technically illegal (although we are all adult enough to understand that there are different extremes of illegality)
To clear up one point on this. Major difference between the FAA and Irish scheme is It's the pilot that is registered in the US not each individual model. Any RC controlled airborne model must have the reg number on or in it. It's similar to the AMA rules in as they stand now, difference is this is compulsory, free for the first 30 days $5 thereafter. As it's a federal law it will be implemented by the FAA and the FBI. Oh and no model must be capable of speeds in excess of 100 mph. Go figure.
USA FAA AMA Scheme (http://view.exacttarget.com/?j=fe5c1179776d05747514&m=fec815777563057a&ls=fdc8157171630c797315737665&l=fe8b13737d6c067d7d&s=fe2c177675670c74701471&jb=ffcf14&ju=fe26117276620d7b711476&r=0)
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Quote from: BigT on December 24, 2015, 10:49:34 AM
So the CAA actually asked this off the record
"The CAA did ask that any video footage on YouTube or similar of naughty things being done with any form of drone or model aircraft be sent to them for investigation, so if you see anything like that, please let us know."
You have been warned
Anyone else think it was a bad move for FPVUK not to be there?
Oh and remember the next time you stick a finger in a prop, send in your MOR to the CAA
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Actually, my mistake, it was On The Record as it appears in the official minutes.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Quote from: BlueFlyer on December 26, 2015, 10:25:18 AM
Western, it's not just flying long distance that's breaking the law, many aspects in FPV are technically illegal (although we are all adult enough to understand that there are different extremes of illegality)
Just really using that as an example. Vtx power, where we fly etc all come in to it.
So how to get to a deserted island somewhere that isn't a nature preserve bombing range. lol
QuoteOh and no model must be capable of speeds in excess of 100 mph. Go figure.
wow, i first read that as model mustn't do in excess of 100mph, but now i have read that again, i don't think they realised how stupid that is,
Here is a £40 trainer:
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bf25NjJ11Y#)
R.I.P Pylon Racing in the US
No one takes my FunJet but terra-firma!
Where did that utterly crap rant go?...
(http://www.heathersanimations.com/babies/bb00037.gif)
I deleted it. Quelle problem?
🍺+📲=😱
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
QuoteI deleted it. Quelle problem?
Not really - just gutted i missed a chance to comment ... Haha, what a gas you are SteveW ;D
Quote from: Steve W on December 27, 2015, 02:36:31 PM
I deleted it. Quelle problem?
Oui ne problem pas
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Quote from: BigT on December 27, 2015, 10:24:38 PM
Oui ne problem pas
Never could understand Geordie dialect !
Est-ce un ensemble de lunettes dans votre poche ou vous êtes simplement heureux de me voir ?
It's on-topic because it's European :)
Seems to me that there are two options for me personally
1) the hobby is over.... unless I want to join the BMFA and stand in a field flying 40m circuits...
2) go underground.
Keukpa
Quote from: keukpa on December 28, 2015, 01:07:50 AM
Seems to me that there are two options for me personally
1) the hobby is over.... unless I want to join the BMFA and stand in a field flying 40m circuits...
2) go underground.
Keukpa
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rmVpnvrZY8#) :laugh:
regards
Andy
Quote from: keukpa on December 28, 2015, 01:07:50 AM
Seems to me that there are two options for me personally
1) the hobby is over.... unless I want to join the BMFA and stand in a field flying 40m circuits...
2) go underground.
Keukpa
3rd option: carry on as you are under the radar and see how long you get away with it
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Wouldn't that be option 2? As I'd be illegal and off the radar?
Still, it's all very sad :(
I think that's the best option. Or move to Scandinavia
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
All becoming a bit to defeatist for me.....
Just fly safely.
That's the problem when you are a minority group. The general public think restricting legislation is a good idea. I hate the nanny state. It never seems to protect me.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Positive: cheap 2nd hand GoPro cameras (by the sounds of things!)
Quote from: Gundummy on December 28, 2015, 11:57:32 AM
All becoming a bit to defeatist for me.....
Just fly safely.
Sadly it's the way it's going.... :/
Defeatist indeed but please remember this is Europe and not the USA. And to those who would say that whatever happens in the USA finds its way over here, please remember that Europe and especially the UK are way ahead of the USA in terms of evolved regulation for model flying. In addition Europe has not adopted, or is likely to adopt a set of laws which allows very liberal possession of guns but bans Kinder eggs because they are seen as potentially harmful to children.
As others have said many times, fly safe. And if you must fly stupid, don't proclaim your stupidity from the rooftops.
Quote from: electrotor on December 30, 2015, 10:50:58 AM
Defeatist indeed but please remember this is Europe and not the USA. And to those who would say that whatever happens in the USA finds its way over here, please remember that Europe and especially the UK are way ahead of the USA in terms of evolved regulation for model flying.
Bet you wouldn't say that if you lived in the Republic of Ireland right now.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Quote from: BigT on December 30, 2015, 01:00:52 PM
Bet you wouldn't say that if you lived in the Republic of Ireland right now.
Indeed, but I don't. Neither do I stay in the USA, China or South Africa.
Granted RoI is in the EU but the Irish Aviation Authority currently make up their own rules on model flying and (from experience) tend to get a bit carried away.
found this too
Here's some newinformation for those based in France. Two new ministerial decisions concerningUAV were published on December 17; they become official on January 1, 2016, replacingthe order of April 11, 2012. They can be found on the official government website:
DEVA1528542A
DEVA1528469A
I am certainly not a legal expert, and the ministerial texts are difficult reading,but the first impression is that there are some real improvements in the new rules.I believe thanks to the effort of the French Federation for Model Aircraft (FFAM).
Concerning amateur use ("model aircraft"), forexample, three points have been clarified and the flight up to 150 meters AGLoutside urban areas is maintained:
•· Flight in FPV mode no longer requires thepresence of a second pilot with an independent RC controller; the new rulingstipulates that a second person must be present to keep the craft in visualcontact to alert the pilot of collision risks.
•· Flight in Waypoint mode ("automatic") is now authorized,provided that the pilot is able to take over command of the craft at anymoment.
•· Aerial photography/video is allowed as long asthe images are not used for commercial purposes.
Other good news, there's no sign here of registration of model aircraft...
There also appears to be some improvement in the professional scenarios, inparticular for UAV less than 2 kg.
All of this should be much clearer in early January when the DGAC makesavailable new user guides (separately for hobby and commercial use) and arevised security notice for "hobby use"; check out news on their site.
Good flying!
Voilà de bonnes nouvelles pour les pilotes du vol en immersion. :)
Be positive.. think positive.. go fly :flying: ....
no more depressing negative posts ... there's a new year around the corner ;D
That's pretty much the same as the FPV Exemption we've had in the UK for years. Just shows that the CAA is actually ahead of the curve.
Regarding autonomous waypoints... There's nothing that I'm aware of that prohibits this here.
Now if the CAA could do away with the spotter rule, I'd only have OFCOM to worry about :P
To be honest, I don't worry about OFCOM anyway... the only way they find out about stuff is if 1) people snitch, or 2) using overpowered equipment causes a nuisance so much that complaints are made (and even then, the people affected would need to know you can complain to ofcom... which I don't think many people do)
I never fly near anyone or anything I could interfere with so unless one of you snitch on me, I'm alright ;)
Quote from: electrotor on December 30, 2015, 04:16:23 PM
Voilà de bonnes nouvelles pour les pilotes du vol en immersion. :)
Könnt ihr bitte mit dem Fremdsprachen aufhören? Hier wird Englisch geschrieben! 😜
Quote from: BlueFlyer on December 30, 2015, 04:59:07 PM
I never fly near anyone or anything I could interfere with so unless one of you snitch on me, I'm alright ;)
All I'll say is be careful who you talk to on here :laugh:
Quote from: Lola on December 30, 2015, 05:16:34 PM
Könnt ihr bitte mit dem Fremdsprachen aufhören? Hier wird Englisch geschrieben! 😜
Sumofthe posting's make me dow,t this ascershon.
QuoteI never fly near anyone I could interfere with
That sounds a bit "Saville"ish ... Do you have urges Chris :)
What has hosting Top of the Pops got to do with FPV??
Quote from: BlueFlyer on December 30, 2015, 04:38:01 PM
Regarding autonomous waypoints... There's nothing that I'm aware of that prohibits this here.
A quote from the BMFA special interest group minutes of 20 April 2013 reporting on a BMFA conversation with the CAA:
"Autonomous flight and Autopilot. MW (Manny Williamson) explained there had been some discussion (with the CAA) regarding autonomous flight and consideration as to whether it could be considered as model aircraft flight. The conclusion reached was that as long as there was compliance with the ANO, it took place in visual line of sight of the pilot and the pilot had the ability to take control at any point that autonomous flight was a valid form of sporting/recreational model aircraft flying. The group were in general agreement with this. GR enquired if there was any provision for beyond visual line of sight flying, MW said that in model flying terms it is clear that there is not."
Pretty clear that there is nothing that prohibits here in the UK.
Mick
QuoteGR enquired if there was any provision for beyond visual line of sight flying, MW said that in model flying terms it is clear that there is not."
Even if sense and avoid systems are fitted? That would be my next question.
Quote
What has hosting Top of the Pops got to do with FPV??
I don't think i can answer that! - Live feed to my living room?
Not sure how they could regulate something that doesn't exist yet
Yeah it's out there Steve... just no one has fitted one and asked the key question IMO. (as per http://www.fpvhub.com/index.php/topic,47848.0.html (http://www.fpvhub.com/index.php/topic,47848.0.html) )
They're fitted in Desert Hawk platforms.
(http://www.analisidifesa.it/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/1325088686523.jpg)
on reflection i guess it raises more questions.....
I really like the look of that plane!
:facepalm: ... i'll see if i can get you a shell if you're that interested lol.. normally they only do a one way trip..
Quote from: Steve W on December 30, 2015, 07:58:31 PM
I really like the look of that plane!
Kind of talon-ish
I bet it's very cheap :)
Quote from: Steve W on December 31, 2015, 01:35:21 AM
I bet it's very cheap :)
Oh, it is.... but that won't stop them charging a fortune for it... always the way.
If one of our keyboards at work breaks, it costs over £100 to replace it due to the god-awful contracts in place with the IT company.
Quote from: BlueFlyer on December 31, 2015, 01:48:34 AM
Oh, it is.... but that won't stop them charging a fortune for it... always the way.
If one of our keyboards at work breaks, it costs over £100 to replace it due to the god-awful contracts in place with the IT company.
Faustian ! :laugh:
regards
Andy