BMFA "A" & "B" Multirotor certs

[Goosgog]

As I understand it I need to get my posts up to 10 so here goes.
After reading this thread I still don't understand what's the point of having the A or B cert?, surely if need to prove yourself you just practice until you achieve what you want

[Loopdreams]

It's not about proving anything to yourself.  The A certificate is mainly for flying at a club with others.  You don't really want to be worried that the person stood next to you on the flightline has barely any control over their model, it's disconcerting and ruins enjoyment if you're having to keep half an eye on someone else's model.  The B certificate is usually used as a minimum requirement for flying where the public might be nearby e.g. at a show.

You aren't going to bother with them if you just want to fly in a field somewhere on your own.

[chris-s]

As I understand it I need to get my posts up to 10 so here goes.
After reading this thread I still don't understand what's the point of having the A or B cert?, surely if need to prove yourself you just practice until you achieve what you want

There are a number of reasons. Primarily, _some_ BMFA affiliated clubs require that you hold an 'A' certificate if you wish to fly un-supervised. This gives them some idea of your abilities and that you are can operate your aircraft safely and responsibly. If you wish to fly at a public display, then they generally require you to hold a 'B' certificate, again, this is purely to give them an idea of your abilities from a safety and competency point of view. Finally, if you, as a BMFA member, were to be involved in an incident resulting in an insurance claim against you and you were not at least an 'A' certificate holder and were flying un-supervised, thats a big loophole for the insurance company.

In particular, the 'A' certificate is more about safety and model handling competency rather than 'skill' levels. You are more likely to fail it from a safety pov rather than ballsing up your landing.

Chris

(ex-BMFA examiner)

[Goosgog]

Right, that's what I wanted to know. (post No4) I'm getting there

[BigT]

To my knowledge, I was the second person to pass the new Multi-rotor test last night shortly after a fellow club member.  I was going to attempt the B, but the diminishing light around 20:15 got the better of this.

I have questioned a fair few points within the B test, not least the now infamous Loop maneuver which you have to perform (this is getting a lot of comments along with the use of stabilization on other forums).  Years ago, the loop was part of the Heli B test along with an auto, but that has subsequently been removed now.  In my opinion, performing a loop with the entry and exit positions at the same height is incredibly tricky with a multi and further guidance needs to be provided on the success of the maneuver.

I know a lot of members on here are anti BMFA, but within our club at Leicester we have an ever growing number of FPVers who fly at the club under the BMFA rules and also fly elsewhere as they see fit. We have got to the stage now, where we are about to introduce a Peg board system (not for 35Mhz as has been the case previously, but for 5.8 Video frequencies). Not all clubs are anti FPV, as long as it's done within the rules.

The new A and B multi-rotor tests are there to give new multi rotor pilots (not necessarily FPV multi rotors pilots) the chance to attain this certificate within the BMFA and I personally feel it's a good idea and was recommended as part of a BMFA Multi-rotor special interest group back in early 2013. It's early doors and may get revised with further feedback.    I'll have a go at the B and see if we can perfect this loop. I have no issue with any of the other maneuvers in rate mode on the B test.

All good fun and something to aim for.

+1

I think a fixed wing examiner can do the multi A test and heli A but it would be nice if he had at least got one him or her self which is why I am doing mine at the weekend.

[BigT]

Good points Chris. Before I comment I must declare that I am a current examiner  for BMFA and LMA. I belong to 2 clubs locally. One requires an. A or equivalent to fly solo and/ or over  7kg the other does not. Guess which one I won't fly at if there is anyone else about?

[Andy Sayle]

I like the way everyone sees these A and B certificates as "Tests".  I thought they were part of an Achievement Scheme, and optional?  Lots of people like getting little certificates to demonstrate they have achieved something.  Similarly, lots of people just like to fly something.  I say well done BMFA for attempting to move with the times, and recognise technology developing.

As for the flying in Manual mode only, I think this is a good idea.  Having all the safety features (like GPS, waypoints, RTH etc), until they do not work.  The point of the achievement certificate is to demonstrate your ability as a pilot, not the flight controller (eg Naza). Flying a very basic set of manouvres (For the A cert.) should be dead easy for anyone who has flown a multirotor for a handful of flights in manual mode anyway...

Our club will more than likely introduce the rule that in order for people to fly a multirotor solo, they will need to have a BMFA Multirotor A cert.  The reason for this, is because it just so happens that this certificate demonstrates a level of ability by the pilot, and presents a fair way to assess a pilots competence that is recognised nationally..    Plus it saves the club having to come up with another method assessing pilots on whether they can fly something safely...

Andy

[Loopdreams]

I like the way everyone sees these A and B certificates as "Tests".  I thought they were part of an Achievement Scheme, and optional?

Our club will more than likely introduce the rule that in order for people to fly a multirotor solo, they will need to have a BMFA Multirotor A cert.  The reason for this, is because it just so happens that this certificate demonstrates a level of ability by the pilot, and presents a fair way to assess a pilots competence that is recognised nationally..    Plus it saves the club having to come up with another method assessing pilots on whether they can fly something safely...

Well then at your club they are a de facto test.  Same as in most others.  Probably why people often refer to them as tests.

[electrotor]

I like the way everyone sees these A and B certificates as "Tests".

That's because they are tests. The front cover of both A and B say so. A has 89 references to test in the document whilst B has 115 references. (No I didn't count, I used search). Seem like tests to me and the BMFA.  :)

[BigT]

Its an age old argument.  I never have understood why there is such resistance to being "examined" on your abilities to operate a model aircraft in a safe and responsible manner, unless of course you can't and don't.  It is a measure of the pilots ability and it's an achievement to gain your "A".  I once belonged to a club of 70 members that operated from a fabulous site that ended up being bordered on 2 sides by a golf course.  In an attempt to get rid of the model club the golf club committee decided to ask there liability insurers to carry out a risk assessment on the model club.  At that time we only had 16 members out of 70 who had any form of "certification" to operate a model aircraft.  So to pre-empt the obvious result we implemented a No A No Solo rule and gave the membership 6 months to get the A. You would not believe the grief the club trainers went through to get the membership to take the A test.  In fact we ended up losing 20 or so members, mostly the older ones.  However, the upshot was that the club felt and was safer to be at and the membership blossomed with youngsters who's parents where very happy with the safety record.  It should be said that this was around the time of 2 fatal accidents caused by models locally, so lots of bad press.  Anyway, what happened to the golf club Risk Assessment?  Well the model club could prove it was on top of safety and training, but the golf club had to fork out £10,000 on fences and netting to protect the members from the members! 

[Heliotrope]

Finally, if you, as a BMFA member, were to be involved in an incident resulting in an insurance claim against you and you were not at least an 'A' certificate holder and were flying un-supervised, thats a big loophole for the insurance company.


Chris

(ex-BMFA examiner)

Please could you explain what this insurance loophole is? I'm not aware that there a requirement for a BMFA member to hold a qualification in order to be covered, just that the flight is lawful.

[Paul881]

Personally, I don't have a problem with being tested.  I see it as a positive achievement and and a good way of improving my skills as a multi-rotor pilot and can certainly understand why clubs prefer their members to have some accreditation before they are allowed off the leash to fly solo.

But I will never take the tests. Reason? I will not fly my Hexacopter on manual. It's not fun;  it's too expensive in terms of the damage and the learning curve.

I would like to know from those who are connected to the BMFA who have posted here and done the tests their thoughts as to why the tests don't allow stabilised flight mode.

[BigT]

I would like to know from those who are connected to the BMFA who have posted here and done the tests their thoughts as to why the tests don't allow stabilised flight mode.

Having spoken at length to the man who spent 3 years writing the tests at the last examiners clinic, his logic is the same as that for the fixed wing tests.  Ergo stabilised flight for a multi would be the same as allowing heading hold gyro's to be used in the heli tests or self leveling Gyro's to be used in fixed wing A an B.  He made the point that taken to it's extreme you could program a APM 2.5.2  or similar quad to fly the complete test as a Mission.

  His point is that it is designed as a test of the pilots skill in controlling the model not the model to fly autonomously and be "guided around the sky".  The multi does need a computer to fly in the first place, the same as a heli uses the Tx/Rx computer mixes, but it can be flown in manual mode by a competent pilot.  If it cannot then it is not a suitable model to take the test with, period.  Same as  you cannot take the fixed wing A with a model under 1kg or indoors et al.

The point was made by me (and other examiners), however, that when we take our B and Examiners test on fixed wing it is allowed to use the computer radio to control rates and mixes used to get the model to fly in a trimmed way.  For example when doing the 2 consecutive rolls it is common practice to teach the student to set up aileron rates that give the correct roll rate etc.  The answer was that it would not be allowed to use a Flight Controller to land the plane or fly the maneuvers.

Personally, and there was a cadre that agreed, that for the A stabalised mode should be allowed and for the B, which is a huge step up in skill, and used as a "Public Display License", it should be done in manual mode.

Generally I treat the A test as a "site specific safety test". In other words would I be happy to let a child be around this person when he is operating this dangerous piece of kit when I have my back turned. Does the candidate have an awareness of their legal and moral responsibilities when operating this small aircraft.  Will this person if left to their own devices cause damage or injury to themselves or others.  For the record, and think this goes for most BMFA examiners, I want to pass not fail a candidate, I want to make modelling safer and I want to keep flying sites. But I will fail candidates who have not read up on the handbook and who do not have the necessary skill set yet.

[jamesb72]

I will never take the tests. Reason? I will not fly my Hexacopter on manual. It's not fun;  it's too expensive in terms of the damage and the learning curve.

That seems a weird perspective, a lot of incidents could be avoided if people were confident flying in manual (flyaways, compass issues etc), so it could potentially be much more expensive NOT to learn to fly in manual.

If you only have a large/expensive multi, you can buy/build a very very cheap quad to practice with (certainly under £100, probably even less - there are some very cheap RTF micro quads which have manual modes, my son has a nanoQX and I'm sure there are much cheaper clones which would be ideal for practicing indoor on rainy days with almost no risk of damage to either quad or furniture), and if you take things steady and are discipline you should be able to learn to fly in manual from the ground up with few or no crashes.

I completely understand a lot of people are not interested in passing tests, but feel everyone should at least have a go at these manouvres, in manual mode, purely as a learning exercise, it cannot fail to improve your flying skills, which surely is what everyone is trying to achieve rather than stagnating and just doing what you did last month because its easy.

[BigT]

I will never take the tests. Reason? I will not fly my Hexacopter on manual. It's not fun;  it's too expensive in terms of the damage and the learning curve.

That seems a weird perspective, a lot of incidents could be avoided if people were confident flying in manual (flyaways, compass issues etc), so it could potentially be much more expensive NOT to learn to fly in manual.

If you only have a large/expensive multi, you can buy/build a very very cheap quad to practice with (certainly under £100, probably even less - there are some very cheap RTF micro quads which have manual modes, my son has a nanoQX and I'm sure there are much cheaper clones which would be ideal for practicing indoor on rainy days with almost no risk of damage to either quad or furniture), and if you take things steady and are discipline you should be able to learn to fly in manual from the ground up with few or no crashes.

I completely understand a lot of people are not interested in passing tests, but feel everyone should at least have a go at these manouvres, in manual mode, purely as a learning exercise, it cannot fail to improve your flying skills, which surely is what everyone is trying to achieve rather than stagnating and just doing what you did last month because its easy.

Good point well made