Have Volkswagen Got Away With It ????

[Doctor3]

well no but it was a bit tongue in cheek.

Im not saying what they did isnt wrong, Im more saying the test is wrong too.
Its not really a lie, its just a bit of a crap test. Its the same with noise testing where most cars use a two stage muffler that only passes the noise tests at very precise speeds.

Im not saying they are in the right, I think they just need to do more sensible tests

[FPVSteve]

Okay so it wasn't a lie, it just wasn't the truth :laugh:

:+

[Billy_boy_2010]

Goodness I can't believe how many left wing anti capitalist people there are on this forum?!

Most people on here are confusing two issues.

1) the tweaking of some software by VW to optimise its performance Ina government test, to slip it's co2 emission into a lower threshold. Saving the consumer £££ in VED and costing the government the same amount. Mpg is unaffected for all intents and purposes. Everyone does it. VW probably did it a bit more than the others.

2) the optimum mpg displayed by car manufacturers.

A few facts for some of you

There is a silly test to give car manufacturers an incentive to stop polluting our dear Earth with the evil co2. Let's ignore all the other sources of co2- which dwarfs that produced by residential car use in the UK, as its not politically correct to consider it.

The co2 emission is not the same as the fuel economy. Although they are closely correlated. But mpg is completely progressive, co2 emissions are classed into different bands. A tiny % in co2 can make the difference of a co2 band- which in turn puts it in another tax bracket.

The co2 emission test is a fairly simple test that all manufacturers comply with. They all take the same test. And they all have access to the same tricks to optimise it. The left wing jump up and down at these evil nasty loopholes, the same ones as those damn bankers use, and the evil solicitors and doctors. But the end result is, it's still a level playing field for all of them. Most of them are pretty simple and common sense really- minimum extra weight, tyre pressures optimum, careful driving etc etc. Some are a bit cheeky- taping up panel gaps to improve aero etc- but it's all a level playing field.

All VW have done is produce software that optimises itself for these tests. They have done this becuase the government have forced them between a rock and a hard place with these silly targets. It has allowed a few of their cars to creep under a different co2 target. The real world mpg is going to be the same with or without these software tweaks.

The government love cars. They make them a fortune in one way or another.

Ultimately the whole CO2 emissions thing is bollock. The government, thanks to pressure from left wing liberals from Europe and the UK, are forced to place a lot of emphasis on co2. Diesel cars are the best way to achieve this. Although in reality Diesel cars are far far more harmful to our health and Mother Earth than petrol cars. In a few years there will be another crisis, another scandal, when someone suddenly "discovers" what everyone in the industry already knows- diesel cars are nasty!

Most people are crap at driving in a fuel efficient manner. Even those who think they are good, often aren't great. There's no doubt any car bought from any new manufacturer could come extremely close to the stated mpg with a lot of concentration. If people want to achieve this then pay a driving instructor for a lesson on how to drive efficiently. Everyone knows it's 20% less in the real world. It's a level playing field for all.

I think the whole road tax/VED thing is rubbish anyway. I think the price should be added to fuel. A PAYG system is far fairer. But the government would piss of taxi drivers and loads of other businesses who do mega mileage, and wouldn't make any £ from weekend car owners.



In many ways the VW scandal can be compared to the Tesco horse meat scandal a couple of years ago. Everyone went mental and blamed tesco. And I agree- tesco are evil bastards. But the consumer was partly responsible for their insatiable thirst for cheap meat. If everyone had been buying free range british meat for years, and just eaten less meat if £ was an issue- the horse meat thing would never have happened.

Ultimately, VW need a slap on the wrist for their actions.
The government needs to realise co2 isn't the only nasty coming out of a cars exhaust. And there are far bigger issues at stake.
Us little people need to get some perspective and realise buying a brand new super efficient diesel car and a shopping bag for life isn't going to save the world

Phew!  ;)

[wgt40w]

I've never met a man before who is so happy to be lied to - when spending the second (after a house) biggest purchase to be made in a lifetime.

If all VW need is a "slap on the wrist", you could equally argue that most criminals in UK prisons should be released - after being given a slap on the wrist.

Community standards are always slipping - less respect for other people / their property - litter, graffiti, etc. etc.  Many reasons are put forward from lack of effective discipline at home and in schools to general liberalisation of society.
Surely some things would improve if there was also an increase in 'setting standards'?

When large banks are seen to have slipping standards (2008 crash) and now large manufacturing firms like VW are being deceptive - I assume we should not complain in future if smaller companies follow suit.

[FPVSteve]

Sorry billy - if you say something and it turns out to be false, you're either a liar or at best you're mistaken. VW weren't mistaken because they knew what they were doing, so by default they are liars. Repeated liars.

The test, as ridiculous as it is, had reasoning behind it - they falsified results to make themselves look better. That has a knock-on effect and in an industry the size of theirs with the economies of scale at stake it was a huge faux-pas.

[FPVSteve]

Everyone went mental and blamed tesco. And I agree- tesco are evil bastards. But the consumer was partly responsible for their insatiable thirst for cheap meat.

I do believe you are talking out of the wrong hole.

If Tesco had told the truth and placed "HORSE MEAT" on the packet, then consumers woudl have had a choice. I bet they'd have chosen a more expensive meat (i.e. beef).

The point, again, is that Tesco LIED. They misled the customer into thinking it was cheap beef. Not cheap meat, cheap BEEF. See the problem?

[Doctor3]

I am surprised how much people care about it to be honest, its a bit of a crooked test that needs to be more strict and VW were just in a loop hole (a dodgy one)
The environment issue is a good point.


@"wgt40w  when spending the second (after a house) biggest purchase to be made in a lifetime"
I wish a car was the second most expensive thing haha, tuition fees (lovely 50 grand) trump my car eazy.

@Billy_boy_2010 - my bag for life will save the world, Im sure.  It just needs to be bitten by a spider or exposed to extreme radiation to then join the xmen

[wgt40w]

@"wgt40w  when spending the second (after a house) biggest purchase to be made in a lifetime"
I wish a car was the second most expensive thing haha, tuition fees (lovely 50 grand) trump my car eazy.

Sorry, I am of the generation when Uni was Free - so didn't think of it !!

[Billy_boy_2010]

I've never met a man before who is so happy to be lied to - when spending the second (after a house) biggest purchase to be made in a lifetime.

If all VW need is a "slap on the wrist", you could equally argue that most criminals in UK prisons should be released - after being given a slap on the wrist

The point is there hasn't been any real lying. A bit of Cheating at worst. The cars met the required standard on that day in the conditions the test was issued. Perhaps "ticking off" rather than slap on the wrist is more appropriate. But not much more.

When large banks are seen to have slipping standards (2008 crash) and now large manufacturing firms like VW are being deceptive - I assume we should not complain in future if smaller companies follow suit.

The bankers the bonuses, the bankers the bonuses, the bankers the bonuses. Yawn. Without banks the UK would be knackered.

Repeated liars.

The test, as ridiculous as it is, had reasoning behind it - they falsified results to make themselves look better. That has a knock-on effect and in an industry the size of theirs with the economies of scale at stake it was a huge faux-pas.

They didn't lie. The cars did achieve those results in those test conditions. At worst they cheated a bit better than everyone else. Which isn't the same thing.

The knock on effect was rather good for anyone who spent the second biggest purchase on a brand new VW. If they were lucky enough to buy one of the relatively few cars affected, they would have saved lots of ££ on VED each year. The government lost out in tax, but the consumer didn't. Until it was all blown up of course, at which point they would have taken a hammering in depreciation :D But the journalists didn't care about that- the public have a right to know after all.




The end result is that there is no real loss to the consumer. A few g of CO2 per mile is a tiny amount of fuel. But people are thinking "I'm getting 20% worse mpg in my VW than I should be. That's the VW software map to blame!" When in fact it should be "I'm getting 19.9% worse mpg from my VW like I would any other new car. And I'm paying 0.1% more on fuel because of the co2 cheat. Thank goodness the lower VED and company car tax far outweighs the £0.1% "

I'm not saying they are in the right. But I think we need some perspective and as a country we need to stop this relentless negative angry left wing jealous witch hunt. Doctors bankers lawyers immigrants nurses teachers companies paedos politicians God knows who else.

It's everyone else's fault. Except ours. They have more money than me and that offends me  :-X

[Billy_boy_2010]

I do believe you are talking out of the wrong hole.

If Tesco had told the truth and placed "HORSE MEAT" on the packet, then consumers woudl have had a choice. I bet they'd have chosen a more expensive meat (i.e. beef).

The point, again, is that Tesco LIED. They misled the customer into thinking it was cheap beef. Not cheap meat, cheap BEEF. See the problem?

Tesco didn't lie. They believed they were selling beef. They were negligent and ignorant for sure. And I wish more was done to punish them because they didn't lie.

Ultimately- the consumer needs to take some responsibility because it is they who create the demand for corners to be cut. The governement are the conaumers in the VW case as its tax related. And the oublic are the consumers of cheap meat.

Same for drugs. Everyone blames the dealers. But without the huge demand from consumers- drug dealers would disappear.

[Billy_boy_2010]

@"wgt40w  when spending the second (after a house) biggest purchase to be made in a lifetime"
I wish a car was the second most expensive thing haha, tuition fees (lovely 50 grand) trump my car eazy.

Keep university for the academic elite- the top 15%- and tuition fees wouldn't exist. The demand from the left for every idiot to get free university education so they can study surfing media studies psychology etc with their DDE grades at A level has meant fees are inevitable ;)

[Vertigo]

I didn't mention anyone murdering anyone.

Historically a crime against the government always seems to carry a higher penalty than a crime against another citizen.

This is True! I was sent to prison for six months for non payment of Poll Tax, thinking I will be out in three and paid my outstanding balance by going to prison.

NO I was made to do the full term as it was a crime against the Crown. and Made to Pay the full amount when out to clear my credit score although a year later it was found to be "an Unfair Tax" I was not able to earn enough money to pay My Poll Tax and My Wifes Poll Tax as she was at home looking after the Children!!!
Sometimes the Law does One!

Bristol Poll Tax Total £3600 with mine and other halfs taken into account. (never refused to pay just said i was self employed and was unable to full fill the payment!)


Just re read that one... Not on a rant but just supporting the statement that when you cross the government/crown you pay a higher price than other offences.

[FPVSteve]

6 months is scandalous for a few hundred quid worth of debt, ffs.