Last year I converted my WOT4 into an FPV setup and used a Cyclops Storm for Autopilot, RTH and HUD and it was flawless.
Problem was, I wasn't and I basically lost it.... Almost exactly a year ago today!.
I decided to start again and rebuild it, this time using a different plane and spent the autumn putting it together.. But then the winter set in, and I had lost my nerve and I never flew it....
2015 came, and I kept putting it off.. And finally, because it was the anniversary of my loss, I decided it was time to finally take my new plane out...
And tonight was the night.. I had already flown it before I put the 'electronics' in and I knew how it flew.. And after all my modifications, it still flew well... And then it came time to try "Pilot Assist" and it all went wrong.. 2 seconds after flicking the switch, it would start to turn and would then go hard over and I had to put it back to normal and recover the plane (And change my pants).
After a few attempt, I figured that there was something wrong and bought it down.. And this time I decided to read the manual.. It seems that I had forgot to calibrate it.. So I did that (it took about 30 seconds.. a lot longer than I remember) and I set off for another flight.
When I put it in PA, the same thing happened, and again I soiled myself...
After landing again and checking things out I realised that I could actually test this on the ground (I had completely forgotten this fact).. And the problem was apparant.. If I held it horizontal.. And flicked the switch, after a couple of seconds the ailerons would move to a position which would kick of a hard left turn.. If I banked the plane to the left, it would get to about 20 degrees where the ailerons would level.. And at this point I could rolls it left to right and the ailerons would do their thing and try to keep it level, even though the plane was at an angle..
But then it got worse.. THere would be a click and they would go the other way.. And then exactly the same thing would happen.. I could roll to the right.. And find the point where the ailerons would hold their position, but again the plane was in a 20-30 degree bank.
When i tested pitch.. The elevators would do nothing to hold its position.
.
Its a real mess.. I tried several times to calibrate.. And I also played around with the other options but to no avail.. Interestingly, when I look at the P & R indications, its fine.. So the plane appears to know when its horizontal/level.. But for some reason it wants to level out at an angle.
I have no idea what to do from here.. When I had my old one fitted in my WOT4 it was perfect and worked first time.. But this unit is not working at all.
Has anyone seen anything like this before? Got any ideas where I can start?
I need to fix this soon, as I am already nervous about flying after last years mishap and am frankly running out of underwear.. I could live without PA.. But the RTH feature does the same thing.. So if anything goes wrong and it goes into RTH, the plane will get its last wish and end up in bits.
Jon
I had a weird drifting gyro issue - as seen here :
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEwQ_cTSeRU#)
However, given the fact you say you AHI indicators (or roll/pitch numbers) look normal, it seems less likely to be this.
Even though in manual mode your ailerons are obviously fine, you can still find these can be reversed in PA - in which case everytime it attempts to stabalise, it goes further out. Just making sure you've checked it out on the ground (before it goes loopy)
A video showing the problems would be useful to help people diagnose it.
Also - have you set "servo centre" ?
You have to fly in manual mode, trim it, bring it down and hit "servo centre" to make the centre point of the servos for straight + level flight.
I would strongly suggest you reflash the unit with the latest firmware, otherwise you may just find yourself chasing your tail.
Quote from: BlueFlyer on August 11, 2015, 11:50:48 PM
I would strongly suggest you reflash the unit with the latest firmware, otherwise you may just find yourself chasing your tail.
Yes, me too, my Storm was doing some wierd stuff and some parameters would not function from the keypad, plus the mah counter was not working ok either, I think 2.10 Firmware is the current release...BTW, if the plane wont fly properly in PA Mode, RTH wont work either.
Flash it.
Its bad of them to put known crap Firmware into units they are selling?..How hard can it be?
:vulture:
Thanks all.. I captured all of tonight flight(s) and it does appear that the P & R indicators are all over the place.. But I need to sit down and study it for a while to see if this is really the case.
I am already running 2.1.. Are you suggesting that I re-flash it anyway? Do I need a special dongle for that?
Jon
Edit.. Just had a quick scan.. Its not right.. Its very erratic, so hard to keep track.. But I have seen cases of where the artifical horizon is pointing the wrong way to actual.. And I have seen a roll angle of 110 degrees, when the plane is clearly at more like 40-50 degrees.
Something is very wrong. And I since I have the latest firmware, I am not sure what to do...
Quote from: jweaver on August 12, 2015, 12:24:35 AM
Thanks all.. I captured all of tonight flight(s) and it does appear that the P & R indicators are all over the place.. But I need to sit down and study it for a while to see if this is really the case.
I am already running 2.1.. Are you suggesting that I re-flash it anyway? Do I need a special dongle for that?
Hon
No, you can check the AP is working on the ground...In Pa Mode, plane level, roll it and check ailerons are moving to correct the roll, same with pitch....If not, dont even think of trying it up in the air...I found some zero setting using the keypad required a slightly deliberate and "long" keypress...You do need a USB interface to flash it...you need to de-case it and watch what you are doing or you could brick it....watch Painless 360 on UTube, I think he has a clip up showing how...
:vulture:
Quote from: English Turbines on August 12, 2015, 12:34:20 AM
No, you can check the AP is working on the ground...In Pa Mode, plane level, roll it and check ailerons are moving to correct the roll, same with pitch....If not, dont even think of trying it up in the air...I found some zero setting using the keypad required a slightly deliberate and "long" keypress...You do need a USB interface to flash it...you need to de-case it and watch what you are doing or you could brick it....watch Painless 360 on UTube, I think he has a clip up showing how...
:vulture:
I have to be entirely honest.. I completely forgot that you could check it on the ground.. I overlooked the fact that the P & R indicators plus the horizon are real time.. But when I was out today, and moving it around, I couldn't see any issues.. It was only during flight did I observe the issue.
But I will do some more tests with fresh eyes tomorrow and see where that takes me.
Jon
Quote from: jweaver on August 12, 2015, 12:41:06 AM
I have to be entirely honest.. I completely forgot that you could check it on the ground.. I overlooked the fact that the P & R indicators plus the horizon are real time.. But when I was out today, and moving it around, I couldn't see any issues.. It was only during flight did I observe the issue.
But I will do some more tests with fresh eyes tomorrow and see where that takes me.
Jon
Ok, sounds good...check your motor and prop is balanced really well....Giros hate vibration, and its those that fly the bird in PA and RTH...
:vulture:
Does the AHI look anything like this?
http://youtu.be/yrWTBDxKfJ0
If so the board needs to be replaced. Contact extraline on rcgroups, he designs the storm and replaced mine free of charge.
Outside of that, try flying it with heading hold and altitude hold off. If you haven't got a GPS fix heading hold doesn't work in the air or on the ground. Get it really level, calibrate the gyro and then ground test it and see what happens in PA mode.
Quote from: elmattbo on August 12, 2015, 01:30:41 AM
Does the AHI look anything like this?
http://youtu.be/yrWTBDxKfJ0 (http://youtu.be/yrWTBDxKfJ0)
If so the board needs to be replaced. Contact extraline on rcgroups, he designs the storm and replaced mine free of charge.
Outside of that, try flying it with heading hold and altitude hold off. If you haven't got a GPS fix heading hold doesn't work in the air or on the ground. Get it really level, calibrate the gyro and then ground test it and see what happens in PA mode.
Nope.. It doens't look like that.. I don't have any kind of drift... If I put it flat and level, the P+R values are fixed and static at 0/0
I need to do some more testing, but I fear its faulty.. Problem is, its almost a year old, but was only used for the first time today, so I don't know if they will honor any kind of warranty.
Out of interest, how long does the calibration take? I was sure it only took a few seconds, but my current unit takes 25 seconds (flashing OK), which I am sure isn't right.
Jon
I have had calibration do that sometimes so it's hard to say if that's a problem.
The firmware flasher is only a few quid so give that a go. Really good instructions are on YouTube by bmsweb and the latest firmware is on the rcgroups thread. Stick with the storm, loiter is coming!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I have uploaded the entire video.. Sorry that its so long, but I haven't had chance to edit it down.
Also, apologies for the flying.. Its quite erratic as it was my first light in a year and frankly I was crapping myself.. Plus the whole issue with PA was very unsettling me.. I never got settled into the flight, so its all over the place...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uwXtE0CZx8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uwXtE0CZx8)
Also, the first flight was an issue as I had a COG/Trim issue and the nose was pitching up... I corrected that after landing for the first time.
Some of the highlights I have found
4:45 - Roll showing upto 100 degrees, even though I am clearly more like 70 degrees
4:52 - PA
5:31 - PA
6:00 - PA
18:56 - Pitch, Roll and Horizon are clearly not right
23:12 - 23:39 - Long calibration
27:28 - PA
I am interested in your thoughts/obervations.. But please don't be too critical of my flight.. I know it was awful, but I was frankly terrified!
Quote from: elmattbo on August 12, 2015, 07:40:41 AM
loiter is coming!
Got to ask.. What is the Loiter mode.. I have seen it mentioned but can find little about it.
If I was to guess, is this a mode where it site in the same spot going round in circles? I guess like RTH, but instead of coming home, it stays where it is?
Jon
Video is private - cannot view
Quote from: jimbo19 on August 12, 2015, 12:39:05 PM
Video is private - cannot view
So its is.. Try now. Cheers.
In level(ish) flight your pitch is showing +17 (P) , you need that to be Zero.
This is set in the Menu, so you would need to dial in -17 for the pitch, this should then show pretty much Zero when in level flight. I reckon that would also then make the AHI be more central in the display. I am pretty sure this would really confuse the Storm when you hit PA or RTH mode as it will be, starting from a bad base-line.
Quote from: karlak on August 12, 2015, 01:38:48 PM
In level(ish) flight your pitch is showing +17 (P) , you need that to be Zero.
This is set in the Menu, so you would need to dial in -17 for the pitch, this should then show pretty much Zero when in level flight. I reckon that would also then make the AHI be more central in the display. I am pretty sure this would really confuse the Storm when you hit PA or RTH mode as it will be, starting from a bad base-line.
I hope you are right.. I did put the plane 'level' on the ground (level as in how it would fly, not roll) and set the trims in the software.. But I will look at that again....
I just looked at the video and can see places where its flying pretty level (rate of clime +/- 1).. And the pitch is certainly off.. But then I have seen others times where its at zero.
I need to re-look at that...
One thing I don't understand is now you setup the Storm for level flight. On the ground its going to be nose up, so I just prop up the tail and get it to where I think it would be in level flight and then do the reset.. Is this right??
If my Storm does think that level is -17 as you say.. How do I get it to zero? Is that what zeroing the trims does?
Jon
Start by as you say setting it on the ground as if level in flight - near as anyway. Check what reading the Pitch (P) is on the OSD. if it is +10, then go to the menu to the TRIM section, select the "P" setting and dial in -10 (it may actually be +10 can't recall), then go always to EXIT so it saves. My understanding is that this tells the storm when the Gyro is set level, so compensates for a less than ideal fitting location. Is the storm mounted on the level in the plane?
Now, the OSD should show ZERO. This is with the plane still set in a level(ish) flight attitude. See if that helps.. Also check your gains in the Storm and perhaps reduce them down ?
The plane did look quite skittish generally in manual flight. Have you set exponential for the controls ? Also, may be worth reducing the rates a little ? I am not an expert by the way :)
Quote from: karlak on August 12, 2015, 02:09:06 PM
Start by as you say setting it on the ground as if level in flight - near as anyway. Check what reading the Pitch (P) is on the OSD. if it is +10, then go to the menu to the TRIM section, select the "P" setting and dial in -10 (it may actually be +10 can't recall), then go always to EXIT so it saves. My understanding is that this tells the storm when the Gyro is set level, so compensates for a less than ideal fitting location. Is the storm mounted on the level in the plane?
Now, the OSD should show ZERO. This is with the plane still set in a level(ish) flight attitude. See if that helps.. Also check your gains in the Storm and perhaps reduce them down ?
The plane did look quite skittish generally in manual flight. Have you set exponential for the controls ? Also, may be worth reducing the rates a little ? I am not an expert by the way :)
I have been thinking about this.. And I don't think this explains the behavour.. I did zero it on the ground.. and I did have P&R at about zero when holding it approx level flight... But even like this, when I put it in PA, the Ailerons move like they want to roll the plane over.. And whats worrying is that for no apparant reason, they would suddenly reverse and go the other way.
When I find the sweet spot, where the ailerons go neutral, I can then wobble it back and forth and they correct.. But the plane is at a bank.. And the Elevators did nothing to correct
THe bit I am not sure is when its in this mode, the Roll shows it as being off level.
I am going to have another good look at this.. Hopefully with fresh eyes things will make more sense.
Jon
It looks as though your ailerons are reversed for PA, but you are saying that if you hold the plane and wiggle it back/forth on the ground that in PA they move the correct way to correct the roll ? If in any doubt, just do a quick ground test having reversed the ailerons in the OSD setup and test again.
What happens when you pitch it up and down in this mode, does the elevator move at all ? If it does then you can try increasing the travel
Watching the video, the roll/pitch wasn't massively out for much of the flight. There's times when you have the "shaky plane" symbol flash up and that's Storm saying "arrgghh don't know where I am" which can take a few seconds to calm down again. Like-wise you got the AHI going out - which can happen after some big moves - the question is, did it settle again, and it did seem to.
Some more height would be really useful, because you were low down, you were only in PA for a second at a time
Quote from: CurryKitten on August 12, 2015, 04:22:12 PM
It looks as though your ailerons are reversed for PA, but you are saying that if you hold the plane and wiggle it back/forth on the ground that in PA they move the correct way to correct the roll ? If in any doubt, just do a quick ground test having reversed the ailerons in the OSD setup and test again.
What happens when you pitch it up and down in this mode, does the elevator move at all ? If it does then you can try increasing the travel
Watching the video, the roll/pithttp://www.fpvhub.com/Smileys/SoLoSMiLeYS1/lipsrsealed.gifch wasn't massively out for much of the flight. There's times when you have the "shaky plane" symbol flash up and that's Storm saying "arrgghh don't know where I am" which can take a few seconds to calm down again. Like-wise you got the AHI going out - which can happen after some big moves - the question is, did it settle again, and it did seem to.
Some more height would be really useful, because you were low down, you were only in PA for a second at a time
No elevator movement at all.. Pitching up and down whilst on the ground did not cause the elevators to move, which I thought odd.
The ailerons do not look reversed.. Doing this by hand.. When I put it in PA, the Ailerons move as if the plane wants to roll.. I roll the plane in the direction of the ailerons and at about 20 degrees they level out (even though the plane is banked at 20 degrees).. At this point I can roll left and right and the tiny movements of the ailerons would keep the plane in that orientation (20 degrees off)..
Suddently for no reason, there is a noise (of the servos moving quickly) and the ailerons go the other way.. and rolling the plane in the other direciton, it "levels out" at 20 degress the other way.
The whole stabilization thing works. Rolling the plan gently causes the ailerons to react like they should. But its "level" is approx 20 degrees off level.
And as I said, the elevators do absolutely nothing...
As for the short PA in the video.. Believe me, if I didn't switch off when I did, it would have dropped out of the sky.. As soon a I put it in PA, the rolls violently to the left/right and drops...
I guess i could go higher and test for longer, but considering the ailerons do what they do on the ground, there is little point in flying agian...
When you hit RESET GYRO do you have your plane sitting level, or balanced on a wing?
I dont think the giros have reset when you have pressed the button myself...Clearly you know how to set the plane level in order to do this, but if your Storm is like mine, then its not even obviuos its actually done it..!!!
So...first off start using the full display, because you need the ladders to show where you have set pitch level...yours is very clearly way off!!!!
The roll looks ok to me as you Taxied about, but the pitch was being hidden as the AHI was locked at the screen bottom.
Then, stop flying the model, because when you select PA, you can do a full function check just watching the flying surfaces to see if they are correcting ok....If you need to, temporarily increase the control surface throws while you check it out...Do not fly it, if it dont work on the ground it wont work in the air either. I assume you have the Storm Mainboard fixed nice and level in the plane under the wing somewhere?....Hope this helps...Oh, and find somewhere more suitable to test fly, flying the model round your head is not good....you need to fly level for up to 1km, not 300mtrs.
:vulture:
Quote from: Steve W on August 12, 2015, 05:33:52 PM
When you hit RESET GYRO do you have your plane sitting level, or balanced on a wing?
As level as possible. Certainly not significantly off centre.
The post from English Turbines above offers a lot of good info, so am going to follow that when i have my next go.
That said.. You mention flying 1km? Thats not going to happen as the last time i lost my plane was when i pushed out to 1km for the first time and i vowed that from now on, i was going to keep it "local" when flying.
At the rnd of the day, the PA mode is of little interest. I bought the Storm for its HUD. But i need RTh to work and thats not going to happen in its current state.
Oh yes.. Location.. Its mounted right under the wing.. Dead flat.. Dead straight.. Pointing forwards..
Hopefully when i look at it again with fresh eyes, it will make sence.
Quote from: jweaver on August 12, 2015, 09:19:41 PM
As level as possible. Certainly not significantly off centre.
The post from English Turbines above offers a lot of good info, so am going to follow that when i have my next go.
That said.. You mention flying 1km? Thats not going to happen as the last time i lost my plane was when i pushed out to 1km for the first time and i vowed that from now on, i was going to keep it "local" when flying.
At the rnd of the day, the PA mode is of little interest. I bought the Storm for its HUD. But i need RTh to work and thats not going to happen in its current state.
Oh yes.. Location.. Its mounted right under the wing.. Dead flat.. Dead straight.. Pointing forwards..
Hopefully when i look at it again with fresh eyes, it will make sence.
Good plan, I hope you get it sorted out....For sure, you need PA Mode to check its working as it should...You cant use RTH, as the plane will try and steer a course home....But if PA Mode works ok on the ground, then it will work ok in the air also...Unless your motor and prop are vibrating badly....So, you are sure when the Storm boots...it shows version 2.10?....and not 2.01?....I had 2.01 in mine, and it was useless!!!
:vulture:
Quote from: English Turbines on August 12, 2015, 10:01:57 PM
Good plan, I hope you get it sorted out....For sure, you need PA Mode to check its working as it should...You cant use RTH, as the plane will try and steer a course home....But if PA Mode works ok on the ground, then it will work ok in the air also...Unless your motor and prop are vibrating badly....So, you are sure when the Storm boots...it shows version 2.10?....and not 2.01?....I had 2.01 in mine, and it was useless!!!
:vulture:
Cheers.. understood that RTH wont work which is a huge problem as if i get a glitch on the radio and it triggers RTH, the plane will get its wish and crash.
Firmware is certainly 2.1 not 2.01.. Wish that was the solution... What bothers me is that the Storm on my WOT4 worked first time.. I had to make slight adjustments, but it still worked.. I didnt see anything like this when i was setting it up.
I am sure i will work it out...
Just plugged in my storm for the first time in a while and it's dead... For no apparent reason, no power! I must have made an error somewhere but it doesn't look good at the moment. Last time it worked fine, ended the flight, unplugged the battery - and now this!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: jweaver on August 12, 2015, 10:46:06 PM
Cheers.. understood that RTH wont work which is a huge problem as if i get a glitch on the radio and it triggers RTH, the plane will get its wish and crash.
Firmware is certainly 2.1 not 2.01.. Wish that was the solution... What bothers me is that the Storm on my WOT4 worked first time.. I had to make slight adjustments, but it still worked.. I didnt see anything like this when i was setting it up.
I am sure i will work it out...
Latest firmware is v2.2 not v2.01
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=30344019 (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=30344019)
You could try flashing it with that.
If you get really stuck and aren't getting anywhere (To the point you wanna throw it out the window)
Just send me a pm.
So here is an update.
I have connected it up in the garage (no GPS) and PA appears to be working normally (alteast the roll).. As soon as I enable PA, the servers start to 'chatter' and when I hold the plane level, the ailerons are level.. As I bank left, the move to push the plane right.. And visa versa.. It looks completely normal and as is working as expected..
I did notice that (as people pointed out) the HUD was calibrated for when the tail wheel was on the ground (i.e nose up).. I have levelled it, and reset the trims and now the HUD is in the middle.
So there are 2 possibilities..
1. The storm was a bit 'confused' and a power rest of a few days has sorted it out
2. This is linked to GPS and Heading hold.
The Ailerons appear to be working.. But I am not convinced about the elevator.. When I pitch up and down, the elevators don't move.. Alteast that's what I thought.. They do.. But only about 1mm in each direction.. Perhaps this subtle movement is all thats needed to stay level, but I thought they moved more? Before I continue, could someone confirm how much movement I should see?
I would expect more.. THe HUD and Pitch indicate a large amount of pitch, so the Storm knows that its climbing/diving.. So I would expect it to know that its in a climb/dive and do something.. But perhaps that not how it works?
My next test is to take it in the garden to get a GPS lock and try again.
Atleast its not looking as bad as I feared...
Jon
Have you tried adjusting the gains? If the elevator isn't moving much, perhaps you need to increase the gain?
Just what I was about to put.
The gains / or angle limit need increasing.
Quote from: Steve W on August 15, 2015, 05:06:12 PM
Have you tried adjusting the gains? If the elevator isn't moving much, perhaps you need to increase the gain?
Set them at 100% and changed the angle to max.. And there is almost no movement....
I have now reproduced the initial fault.. And this has got everything to do with "Heading Hold" rather than a problem with the gyros.
If I get a GPS lock and then enable PA, the Ailerons work normally for a few seconds and then shift to put the plane in a left or right roll.. Interestingly, when I tilt the plan to match the position of roll, its exactly 25%.. It will do this consistently and then suddenly swap, so that you then get a roll in the opposite direction, again at 25%
Video is uploading and the problem is pretty apparent.. If I turn of "Heading Hold" then PA appears to works perfectly (with the Ailerons keeping the plane level).
I did wonder if the GPS was 'drifting'.. But its position was rock solid down to 0.00001 of a degree.. If I moved North 10 ft.. My co-ords moved north.. If I moved West, again, my co-ords moved west.
From my calculations 0.00001 degree is about 3.5ft.. And that seems in keeping with what I saw when I moved around.
At no point have I seen any anomalies in the HUD.. P&R works as expected.. And my GPS position is static, so this looks entirly software.. Hopefully someone can give me some thoughts on what to do next..
Jon
Edit: Here is the video.. Sorry if its hard to follow.. It was very difficult to aim the camera, hold the plane and move it around keeping everythjing in shot. Especially when my neighbor then shouts across asking questions about what I was doing..
http://youtu.be/qapMW-QNw50 (http://youtu.be/qapMW-QNw50)
Look at 40seconds... Up to this point the plane would level out to the right.. Suddenly it reversed and wanted to go to the left.. Then again at 46 seconds, where it reversed back again.. Same thing happens at 1:11, 1:19, 1:21: 1:24
I started to rotate around thinking that it was related to the direction.. But found no pattern...
Its not like you can let it fly like this, as soon as it does this in the air, it rolls over out of control, so I can't even let it do this to visualize what its doing.
Do you have the roll limit set to 25? If so that would explain why it aims for that roll angle. Also, apologies if we've covered this before but heading hold does not work when the aircraft is stationary even with a GPS fix. If you look at the actual heading on the osd it will be all over the place and that's what the storm is chasing. The reason is that the storm uses a sequence of GPS fixes in a certain direction to establish heading, so once you go off flying it works this out and heading hold becomes reliable.
As for the elevator thing... Not sure. I'd be tempted to start from scratch and set it up again. Unplug everything and have a look at the videos by bmsweb, I found them useful. Also there is a manual on the rcg cyclops storm thread. Have a look in thread attachments and it should be there. It's a little out of date but the basics haven't changed.
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In the meantime, go and fly it anyway using the storm as an osd, it's a short flying season, so don't miss it over this! Stay within a reasonable range for video and you'll be fine and you've always got the rth arrow on the osd ( don't forget to zero it before you fly!).
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
^ Good advice, you might find it does exactly what you want once it's in the air.. Just get some altitude and flick back to manual if things go pear-shaped... give it a shot.
Quote from: Steve W on August 16, 2015, 10:48:39 AM
^ Good advice, you might find it does exactly what you want once it's in the air.. Just get some altitude and flick back to manual if things go pear-shaped... give it a shot.
When it was in the air, it became totally uncontrollable.. As soon as the ailerons went had over left/right, the plane would go into a hard turn, and drop out of the sky.. I suspect because the Elevators arn't moving enough and are unable to hold its altitude.
As suggested above, I could just ignore the PA mode.. But would have to avoid RTH as well, which would mean reprogramming the failsafe on my RX (not a big deal) and flying without any safety net.
I think I will just fly my other models for now and will get this resolved/understood before I fly it again..
Here is a video of my elevator movements.. First of all, manual with lots of travel and then PA, with an almost imperceivable amount of movement..
https://youtu.be/Rru0wrdqX7U
I'm gonna blame the weather for the cyclops dysfunctions.
Today my Tornado decided to lose every satellite it found before take off, during flight.
Luckily I know the area, but came back again.
Best not to switch to RTH, never know where it might end up lol.
According to http://www.uavforecast.com/ (http://www.uavforecast.com/) the KP index was high today in my area (6!) which might explain that _tj_ ...
I'm having a right pain in the arse trying to get my Tornado to behave consistently. I forsee a flashing coming on, but it's going to be a right pain in the arse trying to get it off the plane so I can plug into the board.
Ah right.
I was in Epworth today.
Never had it before.
But took it out the hawkeye after it stalled and broke the other wingtip this time.
Put it in my skycruise and flew well.
I think the hawkeye is cursed lol.
I have ordered a programmer.. Going to re-flash it (Plus I have the option to go to 2.2).. I don't know what else to do now....
I am having this EXACT issue today with my Tornado ... went out nice and early, flew brilliantly in manual mode as always.. then tried to dive + turn in RTH and PA mode. Very annoying!!!
It has to be gyro related - it can't be vibration because it was also doing it with the motor off.
ALL is perfect on the ground.
I'm currently going on the gyro drift theory due to temperature. Next test will be to leave the plane on the ground powered on for 10 mins, then unplug, then power up, hit "reset gyro", then retry the tests.
If that doesn't solve it, I'm not sure what to do next. Nothing has changed since my last flight (which was perfect - however the plane had been outside in the car overnight, so was at ambient temperature... this time the plane had been indoors before I flew).
Stolen from RCGroups:
Quote from: RCGroups in 2012!
Actually I mentioned something about the gyros in my first video review. Have a look , and you'll see.
The first thing I noticed was , I calibrated the gyros and made sure P and R was perfect 0 at home before going out to the field.
When I got to the field , suddenly P and R was off .. like when the plane was level R was +15 or something like that... so I needed to recalibrate again on the field.
Then I went flying , everything seemed normal ... expect when I did rolls and loops the gyros got confused and showed wrong P and R values,
but after maybe 10 seconds or so , they were back to normal.
Acording to BEVRC the reason why the gyros got confused when doing "acrobatics" was because they were cheap sensors..... fair enough, I can live with that.
But the thing about gyro drift or whats going on, you guys need to be careful about ... because if you are in serious trouble , and need the assistance of RTH ,
it might Return to Ground instead ,as seen in the video.
A guy commented on youtube saying "This is classic temperature delta to the IMU after takoff."
Quote from: Another RCGroups Poster
Some sensors (especially cheap or older ones) suffer from drift which can be caused by a temperature difference. Years ago it was common practice to let the model "sit" for a short while to avoid drift as the model was taken from a warm environment (car) and placed in a cold environment (outside). Worth a try buddy.
Also, from the creator of the OSD:
Quote from: Extraline on RCGroups
very important!!! The OSD will enter auto detection mode during the first power on, the main board should be placed strictly horizontally and statically, avoid any movement or vibration. If there is any error during the detection, there will be error shows on the OSD screen, cycle the power and do it again.
The attitude neutral point is very important
Quote from: Extraline on RCGroups
Quote from: octane81
extraline , at home I calibrate and make sure P and R is perfect 0.
When I go out to the field , I need to re calibrate because P and R is no longer 0 , is this because of temprature?
yes i think so. must reset GYRO when you outside.
I always reset my gyro before first flight of the day at place of flight.
Mainly because they can sit in the loft for months before I fly them again.
Quote from: Steve W on August 17, 2015, 11:21:58 AM
I am having this EXACT issue today with my Tornado ...
When you say "EXACT" do you mean the same as mine?
Now that I have broken this down, I have 2 issues..
1. When in Heading Hold mode (Or RTH) the Aelerons move to put the plane in a 25 degree bank (left or right), which then makes it spiral towards the ground
2. The Elevators only move a tiny amount (pehrpas +/- 2mm) when in PA mode
But at all times, the Gyro (Measured by the P and R values, and also the HUD) seem fine. The Storm knows its pitching, yet does little to correct this.
So I think its a combination of both issues which is causing my issue.
Jon
Quote from: _tj_ on August 17, 2015, 11:35:34 AM
I always reset my gyro before first flight of the day at place of flight.
Mainly because they can sit in the loft for months before I fly them again.
And thats the other thing.. How long is it taking you guys to reset the gyro? Mine takes about 20-30 seconds (flashing OK).
Jon
My control surfaces operate as I'd expect (including pitch) .. the problem is they move when they're not supposed to (as they would if the gyro needed calibrated).
It sounds to me like you have a trim problem? Have you trimmed the plane in MANUAL MODE to fly straight + level at 50% throttle, then landed and clicked on "Servo Center" on the OSD menu to record the positions? If you move the trims after doing this you'll need to do it again.
MY gyro takes about 10 secs, but it might take longer if the temperature discrepency is high?
I'm going to persue this later on:
1. Power on
2. Wait 5 mins
3. Power off
4. Power on
5. Reset Gyro
6. Check surfaces
7. Take off in manual
8. Hit RTH .. and then pick up the bits
Quote from: Steve W on August 17, 2015, 11:41:15 AM
My control surfaces operate as I'd expect (including pitch) .. the problem is they move when they're not supposed to (as they would if the gyro needed calibrated).
It sounds to me like you have a trim problem? Have you trimmed the plane in MANUAL MODE to fly straight + level at 50% throttle, then landed and clicked on "Servo Center" on the OSD menu to record the positions? If you move the trims after doing this you'll need to do it again.
Done all that.. But forget flying for now.. On the ground, my Elevators don't even move when I pitch the plane...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rru0wrdqX7U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rru0wrdqX7U)
I have tried everything I can do in the menus, and the Elevators are almost entirly unresponsive to pitch.. The Ailerons work fine.. Exactly as you would expect them too.. Until I get GPS and Heading Hold kicks in.. Then it wants to do very abrupt turns.. But then of course, with no way to correct the pitch, the plane corkscrews into the ground (And another pair of pants gets spoiled).
Jon
Do the elevators work in manual mode? Just wondering if you need more mechanical throw on them, I know mine are dumbed down a LOT in PA/RTH mode (think it's something to do with the MAX ELEVATOR setting, I have mine set to 20 degrees now.
Quote from: jweaver on August 17, 2015, 11:38:55 AM
When you say "EXACT" do you mean the same as mine?
Now that I have broken this down, I have 2 issues..
1. When in Heading Hold mode (Or RTH) the Aelerons move to put the plane in a 25 degree bank (left or right), which then makes it spiral towards the ground
2. The Elevators only move a tiny amount (pehrpas +/- 2mm) when in PA mode
But at all times, the Gyro (Measured by the P and R values, and also the HUD) seem fine. The Storm knows its pitching, yet does little to correct this.
So I think its a combination of both issues which is causing my issue.
Jon
Isn't 2 the expected behaviour? In PA mode it's trying to maintain a constant altitude, not necessarily a constant pitch. So it's only going to deflect the elevator if it reads a big gain or drop in altitude.
All autopilot modes can behave a bit strangely on the ground, the autopilot gives a small input to make a tiny correction but then if it sees no correction it keeps on feeding the input in. I remember seeing this when I had it set up, engaging the autopilot on the ground would see the the ailerons go to full deflection.
That's a good point.. the PA mode will adjust to MAX PITCH ANGLE if it's above or below the altitude, so maybe worth increasing the max angle?
Also the ailerons if PA Heading is enabled will drift all over the place on the ground because GPS heading isn't exactly accurate when the plane isn't moving
Quote from: Steve W on August 17, 2015, 12:18:26 PM
That's a good point.. the PA mode will adjust to MAX PITCH ANGLE if it's above or below the altitude, so maybe worth increasing the max angle?
Also the ailerons if PA Heading is enabled will drift all over the place on the ground because GPS heading isn't exactly accurate when the plane isn't moving
In the video above you can see my manual movements, which are completely normal.. And then the automatic movements from the Storm which are almost inpercievable.
I have tried changing the Gain/Max Angle and it makes no difference.. The Elevators are almost entirely unresponsive.
Quote from: Loopdreams on August 17, 2015, 12:06:26 PM
Isn't 2 the expected behaviour? In PA mode it's trying to maintain a constant altitude, not necessarily a constant pitch. So it's only going to deflect the elevator if it reads a big gain or drop in altitude.
Its possible.. When I was out in the field I did wonder if Elevator movement was linked to "altitude" not "pitch" when in PA.. But I am sure they are ment to move more than they do.. Right now, the correction is so subtle, it simply can't keep the nose up when PA forces the Ailerons in a hard turn.
I guess it would be helpful if someone could confirm how much Elevator movement they see, on the ground when PA is on.. I would assume them to move a fair bit and certainly more than I am seeing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rru0wrdqX7U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rru0wrdqX7U)
There is one thing I am considering.. Its well accepted now that in my initial flight, the Pitch was set wrong, so the plane always thought it was climbing.. So perhaps the reason it fell out of the sky was because the elevators were pushing the nose down.. And perhaps the tiny movements I am seeing on the elevators are completely normal.
So perhaps if I trimmed it for level flight, so that P+R were 0, then maybe it would fly a lot better, and whilst the plane might still turn hard, it wouldn't go nose down.
I think before I fly again, I would like to get confirmation from someone as to how much Elevator movement they see on the ground in PA.. I still think mine (with a couple of mms travel) is wrong.
Jon
Quote from: jweaver on August 17, 2015, 12:27:35 PM
There is one thing I am considering.. Its well accepted now that in my initial flight, the Pitch was set wrong, so the plane always thought it was climbing.. So perhaps the reason it fell out of the sky was because the elevators were pushing the nose down.. And perhaps the tiny movements I am seeing on the elevators are completely normal.
So perhaps if I trimmed it for level flight, so that P+R were 0, then maybe it would fly a lot better, and whilst the plane might still turn hard, it wouldn't go nose down.
I think before I fly again, I would like to get confirmation from someone as to how much Elevator movement they see on the ground in PA.. I still think mine (with a couple of mms travel) is wrong.
Jon
My Tornado and Storm will both deflect the elevator and ailerons whilst on the ground in PA mode.
The more I nose it down the more it moves.
Wouldn't make sense for it not to for testing purposes.
Quote from: _tj_ on August 17, 2015, 03:02:33 PM
My Tornado and Storm will both deflect the elevator and ailerons whilst on the ground in PA mode.
The more I nose it down the more it moves.
Wouldn't make sense for it not to for testing purposes.
How much? Mine do deflect as you nose up/down, but only a matter of mm's.. And I can't believe this is normal/correct.
I've just spent the best part of 45 minutes trying to dial my Tornado in at the field with mixed results which basically means it is as inconsistent as ever.
I can't recommend this product and am feeling pretty pissed off to say the least. Almost to the point of taking an FPV hiatus.
Tornado was better before the Loiter mode was added imho.
I managed to get a bit more elevator travel by mosing the push rod to another hole on the horn.. So popped out earlier to test...
Got it all setup, but again, when i enabled PA it would bank violently and enter a corkscrew to its its impending doom..
And i decided to just give up... But tonight my mind started to wander. And suddenly i had a brain wave.. What if the Ailerons were reversed...
It couldnt be that simple, could it... So i watched the video again....
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qapMW-QNw50
... And it appears to be.. When the plane rolls one way, the ailerons move and continue to push it the same way, rather than correct the roll by going the opposite way.
How could i have overlooked this? I am not 100% sure yet, bu am going to check for sure tomorrow.
Fingers crossed i have found the problem.
Quote from: jweaver on August 18, 2015, 02:42:49 AM
And i decided to just give up... But tonight my mind started to wander. And suddenly i had a brain wave.. What if the Ailerons were reversed...
Hmmm, I did suggest that.....
twice. You argued that on the ground doing the test they reacted correctly... did something change ?
Hope that does it, keep us updated.
Quote from: CurryKitten on August 18, 2015, 08:52:58 AM
Hmmm, I did suggest that..... twice. You argued that on the ground doing the test they reacted correctly... did something change ?
Hope that does it, keep us updated.
I didnt argue anything. I just completly misunderstood what the reverse options did from the Stom menus.. Becuase the controls worked correctly MANUALLY i assumed they were set correctly. I didnt realise that the options applied to the movements that the Storm made, and not the movements of the Ailerons in general.
I became so pre-occupied by he faxct that the ailerons pushed the plane hard ove on the ground, i completley overlooked that they were moving the wrong way.
So it was a misunderstanding from my side and completly my fault.
Ah, thought you'd tested in PA on the ground. Apologies, my previous post probably needed a smiley in there - it was just meant to be a light-hearted comment. Here's two to make up for it :) :)
Quote from: CurryKitten on August 18, 2015, 09:47:03 AM
Ah, thought you'd tested in PA on the ground. Apologies, my previous post probably needed a smiley in there - it was just meant to be a light-hearted comment. Here's two to make up for it :) :)
I did.. And posted a video.. And I just didn't spot that the ailerons were moving the wrong way.. As I said, this was a completely misunderstanding of how it worked.. I assumed that when you move the sticks on the TX, they go into the Storm and then the Storm controls the servos.. So I assumed that because they were working the correct way in manual mode, they would be the same in PA.
BUt at 2am this morning, just as I was cleaning my teeth the penny dropped and it dawned on me what was wrong...
I really want to get out now to test.. And the weather is PERFECT, but I am at work and it will have to wait.. And this evening.. Its windy.. And tomorrow.. And the next.. And the next.. etc etc etc.. So I don't know now when I will be able to test.
I am just glad that no harm was done (other than a few pairs of paints)... Every time it went out of control I was able to recover it.. But this was more luck that judgement I fear.
Thanks to everyone for their help.. EVen having a place to write this has helped me understand this and work it out...
Jon
Were you reading RCG at the same as cleaning your teeth?
;) :) :) :) :) :)
Quote from: Jake Bullit on August 18, 2015, 11:07:07 AM
Were you reading RCG at the same as cleaning your teeth?
;) :) :) :) :) :)
:) Almost...
Lol,
It's no wonder it is doing a death spiral.
That was the only possible answer to it.
But as CK mentioned it, and you said it was correct.
No one would put it again, until you had your brainwave lol.
Now reverse it, set gyro level, trim flight, land, centre trims in osd menu.
Launch and enjoy :D :D :D
Quote from: _tj_ on August 18, 2015, 11:12:28 AM
Lol,
It's no wonder it is doing a death spiral.
That was the only possible answer to it.
But as CK mentioned it, and you said it was correct.
No one would put it again, until you had your brainwave lol.
Now reverse it, set gyro level, trim flight, land, centre trims in osd menu.
Launch and enjoy :D :D :D
Indeed.. It explains everything... And as I said, completely my fault..
Looking forwards to trying it out.. But just need a wind free day now and looking at the forecast, this a way off!
Sadly this isn't my issue - although I did have slightly better results late last night by faffing with the gains and giving more up-trim. I'm about to undo that all by simply shifting the battery back and setting the elevator trim neutral because I'm not comfortable with it needing loads of up-trim to fly level ... problem is, it balances right on the bloody wing spars so it SHOULD be correct,
I'm wondering out loud... maybe it's worthwhile slightly tilting the Storm OSD so that what it thinks is level is in fact slightly nose up...
Ah, banking right....so, lets correct that with a bit more right....oh no, more needed...add right...Ahhhhhhhh....lol.
:vulture:
Quote from: English Turbines on August 18, 2015, 01:22:51 PM
Ah, banking right....so, lets correct that with a bit more right....oh no, more needed...add right...Ahhhhhhhh....lol.
:vulture:
:) Why do you think I soiled myself?.. Last was particularly bad.. I took the advice of "leave it in PA to visualize what its doing".. So I got up a bit hight.. Flicked the switch.. And it turned.. Then dived.. Then corkscrewed.. I thought to myself, leave it.. Leave it.. .LEAVE IT.. ANd then bottled it, as it was nose in, heading towards the ground at a huge rate of knots.
Quote from: jweaver on August 18, 2015, 01:41:44 PM
:) Why do you think I soiled myself?.. Last was particularly bad.. I took the advice of "leave it in PA to visualize what its doing".. So I got up a bit hight.. Flicked the switch.. And it turned.. Then dived.. Then corkscrewed.. I thought to myself, leave it.. Leave it.. .LEAVE IT.. ANd then bottled it, as it was nose in, heading towards the ground at a huge rate of knots.
Lol...its never going to get better though is it?...lol....We have all done it though, I have an excuse now though, Im older, thats what I tell people now...lol.
:vulture:
Unfortunately, I have a track record of this.. After getting over-confident when I started flying, I got a new Plane (Radian) and did all my pre-flight checks.. Bar one.. I didn't check the Servo direction.. It was an RTF so why would they be wrong?.
Launched it.. Found the Elevators AND Ailerons reversed... So panicked and did an emergency landing.. Saw the river coming up fast so dumped it in a tree.
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWphdij7z-o#)
To this day I don't know why I didn't get some altitude and then "learn" to fly it reversed just so that I could land it safely.. I have even read of a technique of turning the TX upside down to cope with this... But foolishly I decided to abort and paid the price.
Luckily there was little damage to the plane.. But I was in shreds as the tree was had 4" thorns on it.. Not a day I am likely to forget..
I feel your pain...3 words...Pre...flight...check.
Nice foliage BTW...:)....lol.
:vulture:
Think we've all done it to some extent.
The rush, excite of getting that 1st flight of the day in....... oops..... knew I should of checked that....
I once tried an orange dsm2 rx and built in stab in my new bixler 2.
Everything worked on the ground, but............
I forgot to check stab mode, and the ailerons were reversed.
I had to do 2 circuits before it stuck that they were reversed, nice safe landing though.
Lesson learnt,
2 Weeks ago, a friend got a new tx and forgot it was new when he got to the field.
Setup box at field after realising the settings were on the old box.
Took off, Ailerons were reversed.
He attempted to reverse it whilst in flight, which would have worked...........
Had the ailerons not been in 2 separate channels.
This turned them into elevators lol
So my original problem is certainly solved, but I am not sure I am out of the woods yet..
During the time I have been trying to sort this out, my Storm has crashed/frozen/locked up about 15 times.. It always seems to happen when I press a button on the keypad to try and get into the menus.
Typically, the crashes I get are
1. Black screen.. Now HUD
2. Menus.. With missing options
3. HUD with odd icons instead of numbers
4. HUD frozen
The only way out of this is a power reset and I can't believe this is normal....
I don't recall having a crash in normal operation.. I think it only happens when using the buttons and trying to get into the menu.. But its a little unsettling to say the least.. That said, I am pretty sure that even when its crashed, it still works and I can still control the plane (not sure about RTH or PA though).
On top of this, I am now more and more convinced that I am seeing Gyro drift and/or Lag... On my last flight, I had it trimmed and flying perfectly flat and P/R was near enough 0/0.. But after a turned, my pitch would show 10-20 and would slowly recover, even though I was flat and level.. So I wonder if this is similar to the examples given on the first page by CurryKitten and elmattbo.
I still dont' trust it and am not sure what to do next.. How were those issues fixed?
Jon
Has anyone else seen in
I had missing characters once after I flashed a new firmware.
Reflashing the ap cured it.
Could be an issue with the button board.
Quote from: _tj_ on August 19, 2015, 11:31:27 AM
I had missing characters once after I flashed a new firmware.
Reflashing the ap cured it.
Could be an issue with the button board.
I don't think its the button board.. That is just 3 switches and it works perfectly.. It 'feels' more like Software to me...
When my programmer arrives, I will reflash it.. But the lag and crashing is very unsettling.
Just as a closing update.. I reversed the Ailerons and everything appeared to work normally.
I managed to get 3 batteries worth of flying in on Saturday.. The first 2 to build some confidence in the plane and general and to try PA and it all went very well. I did see PA do something a little odd/aggressive at one point, but I suspect it was after a bunch of sharp turns, so teh gyros were probably confused.
My list battery was flown entirly FPV, and I forgot how much I enjoyed flying this way.. 60% of the time was spent with PA enabled and it was very stable..
I am still not 100% convinced that the gyros aren't lagging a bit.. And I am struggling to get my "trim" right, as sometimes I appear to by flying straight and level at 0-1.. And other times +10.
But there is no doubting that when in PA mode, the plane stays locked at altitude and keeps its heading, so I think I am 99% of the way there.
A huge thanks to everyone for their help with this.. I am gutting that I made this simple mistake, as it increase my nerves/paranoia, rather than helping me.. But hopefully now, if I can get a few flights in without any problems, I will soon get my confidence back.
Thanks again
Jon
Nice to hear all is working ok now.
And your enjoying it, that's the main part of flying anything.
Now,
Just remember to reset the gyro if you only go flying once a week.
I do it everytime I go to field, even if it's only the day after the one before.
You will gain more confidence with each flight.
I'm struggling to enjoy my Hawkeye 1700mm, it has some severe issues.
But that made me transplant the AP to my Super GIANT bixler AKA Sky Cruise 2400.
I completely forgot what that was like to fly until last weekend.
I enjoyed it that much, I brought a couple of 10A 4s lipo's for it.
Although I need to make another Pitot tube for the Tornado or steal it back from the Skywalker.
It makes a big difference imo.
Happy Flying ...........
Quote from: _tj_ on August 24, 2015, 04:38:33 PM
Nice to hear all is working ok now.
And your enjoying it, that's the main part of flying anything.
Now,
Just remember to reset the gyro if you only go flying once a week.
I do it everytime I go to field, even if it's only the day after the one before.
You will gain more confidence with each flight.
I'm struggling to enjoy my Hawkeye 1700mm, it has some severe issues.
But that made me transplant the AP to my Super GIANT bixler AKA Sky Cruise 2400.
I completely forgot what that was like to fly until last weekend.
I enjoyed it that much, I brought a couple of 10A 4s lipo's for it.
Although I need to make another Pitot tube for the Tornado or steal it back from the Skywalker.
It makes a big difference imo.
Happy Flying ...........
I will remember that for sure, I am fly very seldom especially as I am a 'fair weather' type. So will add "reset gyro" to my checklist.
I have now started work on my next project (a 250 Quad), so I suspect this will get used even less.... I think for me, I enjoy the build and learning more than the actual flying.. But I would like to get some hours into the Riot whilst I can.