What arrived today?

[BigT]

I don't see the definition as that Wayne, can you link to the passage? I found this that specifically excludes control. Use is for audio and data. .

I will put a call into Ofcom today for clarification.

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[atomiclama]

868 upto 25mW is legal in the UK. It's in a license exempt band. This has been covered in a number of crossfire threads some of which are on this forum.

Can't link the the details soz

[CurryKitten]

I don't see the definition as that Wayne, can you link to the passage? I found this that specifically excludes control. Use is for audio and data. .

Pages 19-21 of the document I linked to

[BigT]

Just checked with Ofcom and 868 is only to be used for data transfer not  control. It is not a legal analogue control frequency in the U.K. they referred me to this chart for the EU, some countries don't even list 2.4 as legal 
https://www.fai.org/page/frequencies



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[atomiclama]

https://www.fai.org/page/frequencies

Well I don't fully trust that site as it states: -

Model control and telemetry:
458.5 MHz to 459.5 MHz: Effective Radiated Power 100 mW

which is wrong.

[FPVSteve]

The text in the Ofcom stuff suffers from being in quite a technical language - as I suppose it will do, but be nice to have a summary page as well.  However, 2 things jump out at me.  First is that TBS got an CE mark on the Crossfire system as well as an EU declaration of conformity - which you don't get for a system that can't be used.

If you look at the frequency allocation table on Ofcom, then there's a note about "harmonised use of spectrum for short range devices (SRDs)" for 868.  This eventually led me to here https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0028/84970/ir-2030-july-2017.pdf where the document tells me that 868 can be used airborne, with the only exclusions being analogue voice and video.

I could be reading that wrong of course, but my understanding is 868 is legal in the EU for RC control up to 25mw

It says "the equipment may be used airborne" but the transmitting component is on the ground - so is it actually appropriate to Crossfire?

[BigT]

Well I don't fully trust that site as it states: -

which is wrong.

Don't where you are getting your info from but you are misinformed or out of date. Suggest you call Ofcom or the LMA or BMFA or UKRCC.



Edit
Telemetry includes RSSI, rx pack voltage etc
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[atomiclama]

The table you listed ofcom and ukrcc.

Telemetry is 433 give or take a bit, this is purely from airborne model to ground. edit sorry this can also be used for control under the non-specif SRD but is limited to 10mW

Control is 458 give or take and is purely from ground to model. and under the specific use of model control can go to 100mW

This is different from the information in

https://www.fai.org/page/frequencies
Model control and telemetry:
458.5 MHz to 459.5 MHz: Effective Radiated Power 100 mW

I'm being picky about this as ofcom are very specific in their description

https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0028/84970/ir-2030-july-2017.pdf

The 868 is falling under the non-specific short range devices and is limited to 25mW can be used airborne so telemetry is ok.

[atomiclama]

It says "the equipment may be used airborne" but the transmitting component is on the ground - so is it actually appropriate to Crossfire?

When crossfire is doing telemetry the transmitter is airborne so it fits within that rule.

[BigT]

Statement I received today from the BMFA Technical and Legal dept

" 868 is an unlicensed frequency but has strict rules. Distance is supposed to be no more than 300 metres...Please don't make the common mistake, there is NO such thing as unlicensed spectrum in the UK. Bands like 433MHz, 868MHz, 2.4GHz are license exempt. This means if you stick to the license published by Ofcom (in a Standard Instrument - i.e. an Act of Parliament), you don't need a specific license (which you would be very unlikely to get in license except bands).

Generally the SI contains a list of technical requirements such as channel size, max power (ERP or EIRP) etc. Also the requirement may be that all equipment is CE marked. There are variances for running tech trials (such as in 868MHz, however systems must not be more than 300m apart). It is possible to get a test license from Ofcom to do more realistic testing in real world environments and these cost around £50 (maybe per piece of equipment). 300 meters means the distance from tx to rx.  Responsibility for assigning frequencies to this Allocation rests with Ofcom.  Frequencies in this Allocation are exclusively assigned for emergency services use.  Further information on emergency service use can be found in the document  "Frequencies for Emergency Services in the UK".

So in my opinion 868 MHz  is not legal for recreational model aircraft flying.

[FPVSteve]

Is it illegal? There seems to be a grey area

[BigT]

Well Steve in the opinion of the BMFA, LMA and the PR dept of Ofcom it is illegal for RC Model Control and for other uses if the tx and rx are more than 300m apart. As far as the BMFA are concerned they view its use the same as 433 so insurance and legal support would be void.  IMHO why take the chance given the current situation.  I understand that the Jeti DC24 Duplex radio uses the 868/900 band for telemetry.

[atomiclama]

Interesting. Never saw the requirement about 300m.

So if this is the case what are ofcom doing about the crossfire and R9 ?

[atomiclama]

Well Steve in the opinion of the BMFA, LMA and the PR dept of Ofcom it is illegal for RC Model Control and for other uses if the tx and rx are more than 300m apart. As far as the BMFA are concerned they vihinkew its use the same as 433 so insurance and legal support would be void.

Any chance of an official statement from the BMFA and Ofcom with regards to this?

Think that will get a few people worked up ;D

[CurryKitten]

I refer you guys to this statement of EU conformity that TBS have on the radio equipment now http://www.team-blacksheep.com/doc_ce/id:1710

Is the suggestion that a piece of equipment can adhere to all the necessary standard to get such a document, along with a CE kite mark and still be illegal to use?

Clear as mud seems to be the apt description, with the statement from the BMFA throwing in 300m from nowhere - c'mon BMFA, citations please ?

I'm certainly no legal expert in these matters, and nor should I have to be.  We can get the cheap unlicensed stuff from China, but when we have the CE mark, it's supposed to be approved - simple as that.  If there's something wrong here, then more simple straightforward language needs to be used.

Go to a race meet and look at the amount of people on Crossfire, it's very much already here - and I don't see anyone getting kicked off the field for using 868 over 2.4.

I remain confused - even when you try and do the right thing, barriers pop up everywhere